Beating the Fascists: The authorised history of Anti-Fascist Action

[bignose1]

re: this ongoing spat

Malatesta....its never going to stop I fear as they are completely obsessed by this...i would have thought they would once their score settling book came out but obviously not to be. If you care to see how these conflagrations ocurr it will usually be by them raking up all the old stuff then sitting back for the ensuing shitfest. Sorry.

 

[love detective]

Maybe it would be justified because these people acted like scum and that behaviour cannot be defended by the quoting of being anti fascists because they removed themselves from that by their disgraceful actions and I mean viscious dirty, shitty you name it they lowered it. Ive emailed Carter Ruck and am awaiting their response. I did not name names as I couldnt possibly know...are you a clown....cant you understand that...or are you really not interested.

If you didn't name names (although you see no problem in doing so if you had done) then I suggest you take your venom out on Carter Ruck who explicitly referred to you as the source of those names in a legal 'cease & desist' letter sent to the book's publishers

 

[krink]

The amount of fatal violence in the late 20s/early 30s was tiny compared to the fighting 1919, 1921 and 1923 - though on an upward trajectory until early 1933 - and i don't mean the attempted insurrections - i mean the fighting between left-wingers and the right wing combat Leagues - not the freikorps crushing Hamburg etc.

where could i read about this butchers?cheers.

 

[butchersapron]

where could i read about this butchers?cheers.

I'm away from home and my books atm but off top of head i'd have a look at Political Violence and the Rise of Nazism: The Storm Troopers in Eastern Germany, 1925-1934 by Richard Bessel, Political Violence in the Weimar Republic, 1918-1933: Fight for the Streets and Fear of Civil War by Dirk Schumann, Vanguard of Nazism: Free Corps Movement in Postwar Germany, 1918-2 by RGL Waite, Stormtroopers: A Social, Economic and Ideological Analysis, 1929-35 by Conan Fishcher, Communist Resistance in Nazi Germany by Allan Merson.

 

[malatesta32]

It's a great book, but there's loads more than just that that you need to get the full picture. The amount of fatal violence in the late 20s/early 30s was tiny compared to the fighting 1919, 1921 and 1923 - though on an upward trajectory until early 1933 - and i don't mean the attempted insurrections - i mean the fighting between left-wingers and the right wing combat Leagues - not the freikorps crushing Hamburg etc.

i got quite a few - hammer and anvil, making of nazi stormtrooper etc - which give ample stuff about violence in the period you mention. sadly the history of antifascism is mainly buried in the history of fascism which requires a lot of reading fairly dodgy points of view about it all. there simply arent enough accounts by antifascism - apart from beckman, rosenhaft etc - which makes this ongoing spat depressing as NR and BTF are both grand reads and 2 of the very few accounts by militant antifascists regardless of folks points of view!

 

[malatesta32]

Yep, an absolute gem. Literally packed with outstanding details all (e.g 18,000 RFL fighters recipients of Red Aid in just one year - injured in fighting the fash) which combine to make the Trot charge that the KPD were the ones that ducked the battle against the Nazis such a vile and politically damaging lie.

Incidentally the full title is 'Beating the Fascists?' question mark, that helps distinguishes it from our own august publication. It is not the only thing sadly, but we can only do our best!

yes bollocks to that KPD injuries and fatalities were heavy. didnt know about the trot chagre - who specifically. also, the KPD/NSPD 'strike' - any other sources disputing this? i got hammer or anvil which deals with it a wee bit. other accounts puff it up somewhat and are clearly anti militant.

 

[butchersapron]

i got quite a few - hammer and anvil, making of nazi stormtrooper etc - which give ample stuff about violence in the period you mention. sadly the history of antifascism is mainly buried in the history of fascism which requires a lot of reading fairly dodgy points of view about it all. there simply arent enough accounts by antifascism - apart from beckman, rosenhaft etc - which makes this ongoing spat depressing as NR and BTF are both grand reads and 2 of the very few accounts by militant antifascists regardless of folks points of view!

Hammer and anvil doesn't really cover it at all and it's 50 years behind modern research. And whilst first person accounts and impressionistic overviews of 50 years of history like Anderson's are useful, they are not analysis. They need to be read with the other material providing the wider more informed context that then allow you to reach conclusions on things like the extent of the fighting, what forms it took, who was involved, what methods did different situations throw up, what was the relationship between the parties fighting groups, between the party leadership and the local leadership, between them and the fighters, what traditions did they mobilise and organise around and so on.

 

[Joe Reilly]

I actually stayed over at Jeff R's house one night, with a mate, after some anti-fascist activity, late 70's. He later parted from the political group he was involved with and became known as an "independent" from then on. Haven't had any contact with him since, well apart from an exchange of nods, after a demo some years ago. Writing down his machinations and passing them on not a good idea in hindsight for him then.

Well it wasn't just him. He was the ringmaster at the 1987 conference referred to by Ayatollah, and laid the groundwork for the racist allegations there, but a small number of branches supported the suspension - though the meeting wasn't quorate, and the charges and suspension were implemented without any RA delegates being present. A similar witch hunt against CW with a different list of characters with Searchlight and NMP to the fore had proven succesful the previous year despite opposition from DAM and RA, who both walked out in protest. So while Jeff R carried the can, others were also involved.

 

[butchersapron]

yes bollocks to that KPD injuries and fatalities were heavy. didnt know about the trot chagre - who specifically. also, the KPD/NSPD 'strike' - any other sources disputing this? i got hammer or anvil which deals with it a wee bit. other accounts puff it up somewhat and are clearly anti militant.

It's the standard left-wing charge that the KPD scuppered a united front with the SPD through a) making it impossible through attacking the SPD as 'social fascists' and b) sat back with their arms crossed saying 'after hitler, us'. It fails to mention the SPD making the united front impossible through calling in the freikorps repeaterdly in from 1919 to 23, by killing 33 communists in the 1928 fighting and so on. (leaving aside the problems with the united front analysis for now).

 

[malatesta32]

brilliant thanks butchers! i am 'at the but n ben' redrafting the 1st half (pre-war europe) the now and this is well helpful. spent a fortune on amazon with some pretty dismal returns! i have managed to sieve out most of the key events from it all tho and am pretty pleased with the progress.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

It's the standard left-wing charge that the KPD scuppered a united front with the SPD through a) making it impossible through attacking the SPD as 'social fascists' and b) sat back with their arms crossed saying 'after hitler, us'. It fails to mention the SPD making the united front impossible through calling in the freikorps repeaterdly in from 1919 to 23, by killing 33 communists in the 1928 fighting and so on. (leaving aside the problems with the united front analysis for now).

The standard left-wing charge against the KPD is in no way incompatible with a left wing charge against the SPD. Many KPD workers fought heroically, but they were hindered by a catastrophic strategy. Too often both their critics and their apologists confuse the two issues.

 

[malatesta32]

yes the SPD called in plod on several occasions to attack KPD. why the fuck shd they 'stand with' (to use soccer terms) someone who has attacked them previously? its like asking anarchos to join up with blairite labour!

 

[Nigel Irritable]

yes the SPD called in plod on several occasions to attack KPD. why the fuck shd they 'stand with' (to use soccer terms) someone who has attacked them previously?

That's hardly a difficult question to answer in the context of the time.

 

[malatesta32]

the class v class thing and 'social fascists' would have alienated some socialists surely but i found that many socialists fought alongside the KPD/red front/AFa etc as they were locally based and probably with their mates from school and work regardless of spd edicts to do the contrary. it was more a neighbourhood battle ground than say trafalgar square,, brick lane etc.

 

[bignose1]

If you didn't name names (although you see no problem in doing so if you had done) then I suggest you take your venom out on Carter Ruck who explicitly referred to you as the source of those names in a legal 'cease & desist' letter sent to the book's publishers

Put up or shut up.....
This naming names bollox regardless...cant you get that when you lot took the gloves off approach to the authors of NR you effectively lost any rights to any of that shit. The fact that you still pursue this is beyond belief. The Catrter Ruck lot were already au fait with the ins and outs...i think they had already make a few enquiries before I ever spoke to them which did not include who I thought the author/s were because I couldnt have known you clown...dont you understand.!! Dont hide behind the aggrieved hard done to grassed up baloney. Its a bit like Ribbentrop at the Nuremburg Trials slagging Stalin after attacking Russia for tearing up the Non Aggression Pact.

 

[love detective]

Put up or shut up.....

are you asking me to post up a copy of the letter here on a public forum?

 

[bignose1]

are you asking me to post up a copy of the letter here on a public forum?

Do whatever you fucking want. I really couldnt give a fuck. I am for the last time telling you 'how could I know who the authors were and what loyalty have I to them anyway after their disgraceful behaviour following Daves death' Cant you get that ffs.

 

[bignose1]

are you asking me to post up a copy of the letter here on a public forum?

It would be like me putting forward a list of names here now....perm any 5 from 10 any 3 from 5 blah blah. At the time this happened I was feeling very charged. Louise and her kids were still grieving you lot were pursuing him beyond the grave and in doing so put yourself completely on offer. Just answer me.....how would I know who the authors were....(dont sidestep that again). And secondly at risk of repeating myself why should I have given/give a fuck if I had done? Who are you to me??

 

[love detective]

Just answer me.....how would I know who the authors were....(dont sidestep that again)

Well you've kind of answered this yourself in your previous posts, in that most people 'in the know' would have a good idea who the authors were

But this isn't really the point, whether you knew exactly who they were or did not, Carter Ruck referred to you as their source for who they were

So all im asking is, are Carter Ruck lying?

 

[bignose1]

Well you've kind of answered this yourself in your previous posts, in that most people 'in the know' would have a good idea who the authors were

But this isn't really the point, whether you knew exactly who they were or did not, Carter Ruck referred to you as their source for who they were

So all im asking is, are Carter Ruck lying?

This is laughable...youv'e just contradicted yourself...you say Ive outed the authors and now you were 'about' to out me using Carter Ruck...so in effect you are willing to use a firm of lawyers to 'out' an anti fascist author...wtfffff

 

[bignose1]

Well you've kind of answered this yourself in your previous posts, in that most people 'in the know' would have a good idea who the authors were

But this isn't really the point, whether you knew exactly who they were or did not, Carter Ruck referred to you as their source for who they were

So all im asking is, are Carter Ruck lying?

Scenario....
Carter Ruck '' Who do you think are the authors of BTF''
Bignose1 '' Not sure could be former Red Action/AFA members''

End of investigation.

 

[love detective]

This is laughable...youv'e just contradicted yourself...you say Ive outed the authors and now you were 'about' to out me using Carter Ruck...

are you unwell? where did i say I was 'about' to out you?

You told me to 'put up or shut up'

I asked if this was a request for me to post the letter on a public internet forum

in effect you are willing to use a firm of lawyers to 'out' an anti fascist author

i'm not - although ironically you've summed up exactly what you did

 

[bignose1]

Scenario....
Carter Ruck '' Who do you think are the authors of BTF''
Bignose1 '' Not sure could be former Red Action/AFA members''

End of investigation.

Scenario 2
Carter Ruck '' Who was behind the disgraceful smears and threats against Dave Hann in the period up to his death''
Bignose1 '' former Red Action/AFA members''

 

[love detective]

Scenario....
Carter Ruck '' Who do you think are the authors of BTF''
Bignose1 '' Not sure could be Red Action/AFA members''

End of investigation.

So Carter Ruck were lying then when they referred to you as their source of a list of specific names of the authors of the book, and other information about those specific names?

 

[bignose1]

So Carter Ruck were lying then when they referred to you as their source of a list of specific names of the authors of the book, and other information about those specific names?

Are you really stupid...I say once more 'how would I know who the author/s were'
And if I did then why should I have given a fuck considering what they had done.
I suggest you take time to think about this whole thing...maybe go for a stroll and think about whether if you had kids who had just lost their dad how you might feel...or are you such a twisted cunt.

 

[Joe Reilly]

It's the standard left-wing charge that the KPD scuppered a united front with the SPD through a) making it impossible through attacking the SPD as 'social fascists' and b) sat back with their arms crossed saying 'after hitler, us'. It fails to mention the SPD making the united front impossible through calling in the freikorps repeaterdly in from 1919 to 23, by killing 33 communists in the 1928 fighting and so on. (leaving aside the problems with the united front analysis for now).

The other points that's just as often missed/overlooked/airbrushed is that the 'united front' was a Trot chimera that would have delivered very little at best, basically because the SPD though and enormous party, especially when compared to the forces available to the KPD had no stomach, (as the respective levels of injuries and fatalities show) for the fight against the Nazis anyway. By pointing the blame at the KPD Trotskyism has let the SPD of the hook, thereby distorting the lessons that ought to have been absorbed - but, if we look at present day Europe, clearly haven't been.

 

[malatesta32]

the SPD failed to combat fascist aggression when the KPD sensibly saw the threat to WC community and organisations. the SPD were the government and hardly likely to be doing drive bys and attacking fascists' clubs. altho they got their fighting league together eventually the idea of a popular front of KPD SPD was not going to happen cos of the past and ideological and (i think rosenhaft says) cos of age/culture/employment etc differences.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

For those interested, AFA Ireland are publishing a 30,000+ word, full colour pamphlet on the 5th October to mark their 21st birthday. The first section deals with the Irish far-right and opposition to them from 1945 to the late 1980s. The second section deals with the background to the formation of AFA (late 1980s) and then the work the organisation has done from 1991 until 2012.

More on the weekend: http://www.afa-ireland.com/21stbirthday/

More on the history side of things (photo album): https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.419172908143031.97313.192377537489237&type=3

 

[malatesta32]

ah fantastic! was wondering how it was going! well done and i shall no doubt be ripping into it for me book!

 

[love detective]

Are you really stupid...I say once more 'how would I know who the author/s were'
And if I did then why should I have given a fuck considering what they had done.
I suggest you take time to think about this whole thing...maybe go for a stroll and think about whether if you had kids who had just lost their dad how you might feel...or are you such a twisted cunt.

Look, i don't know how many times I can repeat the same point - Carter Ruck have said in a legal 'cease & desist' letter that you told them things that here you deny you told them (yet claim if you had told them you would be justified in doing so)

That you go ballistic at me for pointing out what has been said about you by a firm of lawyers is absurd - if it's a lie, then take it up with them not me. If it's the truth then stop blaming me for it