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Basic Income

Im sure there are potential devils in the detail, and it could certainly be implemented in a variety of ways...ultimately though could a model be introduced that gave people in the UK less than they get now? It seems impossible considering how little a sum it is already and the basic costs of living expected to come from it... Hard to talk about in abstract without concrete plans and figures.
 
Fez909 said:
New Zealand gets on board

New Zealanders want to give each of its citizens a basic income
Click to expand...

From the comments on that piece:

So people with major disabilities suddenly a fraction of what they previously got and they are left to figure out where to get the rest? Recipe for mass poverty, mass misery.

That's the devil in the detail of this one. The Kiwis may go ahead with this, but it will only be the end of a long history of thirty years, in which both Labour and National parties have pursued extreme neoliberal policies that caused mass misery among the NZ working class (look at the movie In a Land of Plenty - the whole thing is on youtube, and it will make your blood boil).
 
Idris2002 said:
From the comments on that piece:

So people with major disabilities suddenly a fraction of what they previously got and they are left to figure out where to get the rest? Recipe for mass poverty, mass misery.

That's the devil in the detail of this one. The Kiwis may go ahead with this, but it will only be the end of a long history of thirty years, in which both Labour and National parties have pursued extreme neoliberal policies that caused mass misery among the NZ working class (look at the movie In a Land of Plenty - the whole thing is on youtube, and it will make your blood boil).
Click to expand...
This is definitely something that would need checking in any basic income programme.... There are a number of cases where people are entitled to a range of money pots and any attempt to bin them all in place of one basic income is clearly out of order.... I'm sure there will still be supplements on top of basic income that people will have entitlement to....

As with any model, if a government wants to be cunts they can be so, basic income is neutral in that respect, the way it is implemented can be good or bad.

If nz has a bad record on this then that's worrying.
 
ska invita said:
This is definitely something that would need checking in any basic income programme.... There are a number of cases where people are entitled to a range of money pots and any attempt to bin them all in place of one basic income is clearly out of order.... I'm sure there will still be supplements on top of basic income that people will have entitlement to....

As with any model, if a government wants to be cunts they can be so, basic income is neutral in that respect, the way it is implemented can be good or bad.

If nz has a bad record on this then that's worrying.
Click to expand...
By christ has it got a bad record, and yes you should be worried. Don't forget though that this is a proposal from the essentially moribund NZ Labour Party, which has been effectively in decline since David Lange's time (Helen Clark was alright for what she was, but that's it).

 
Some criticisms here - although a bit thin, but then the idea of giving a basic income to everyone, and then taking it back off them also seems a bit thin, as if we can't even suggest that poor people should be given more money, unconditionally, without an elaborate and hugely expensive burearocracy which only really seems to be intended to pacify the daily mail types - and it won't pacify them.

I wrestle with this, its clearly gaining ground as an idea, and in the context of current social security policies would make a lot of peoples lives a lot better. It could be transformative, in the way the welfare state was, but it could also be the saviour of capitalism, and by the time capital has finished with it they will have most of what they want, full marketisation of public services, flat rate tax, end of the minimum wage and workplace protections. Then they will probably take it away, as they are doing with the welfare state.

Having said that the welfare state was born out of fears of an organised working class seeking genuinely revolutionary change, there is no such organisation now and its hard to see where it will come from. Is this the best we can get? Should we compromise? I really don't fucking know.
 
Income is money received, especially on a regular basis, for work or through investments.

So, shouldn't this be Basic Benefit not income.
 
Fez909 said:
Income: money coming in.
Click to expand...

Google thinks income is "money received, especially on a regular basis, for work or through investments".

What's the problem with calling it benefit in any case? I assume this is money paid out by the government we are talking about, so its a benefit.
 
Kilgore Trout said:
Google thinks income is "money received, especially on a regular basis, for work or through investments".

What's the problem with calling it benefit in any case? I assume this is money paid out by the government we are talking about, so its a benefit.
Click to expand...
Because the word benefit has negative connotations after years of demonisation by tories and media.
 
Kilgore Trout said:
What's the problem with calling it benefit in any case? I assume this is money paid out by the government we are talking about, so its a benefit.
Click to expand...

Fez909 said:
Because the word benefit has negative connotations after years of demonisation by tories and media.
Click to expand...
Personally I also think it's just inaccurate and, possibly, disingenuous. There aren't "benefits" to needing help from the state to survive, and by calling it that it helps perpetuate the popular misconception that people are claiming through choice.

Something more like "assistance" would perhaps be more appropriate.
 
Lord Camomile said:
Personally I also think it's just inaccurate and, possibly, disingenuous. There aren't "benefits" to needing help from the state to survive, and by calling it that it helps perpetuate the popular misconception that people are claiming through choice.

Something more like "assistance" would perhaps be more appropriate.
Click to expand...
You can't call a right assistance!
 
butchersapron said:
You can't call a right assistance!
Click to expand...
Hm, fair point, but is it not "assistance" to getting your rights? Anyway, was just a first suggestion, and I did try to qualify it as much as possible. Perhaps "income" is better. Probably shouldn't have posted really it's just the term "benefits" irritates me greatly.
 
Lord Camomile said:
Hm, fair point, but is it not "assistance" to getting your rights? Anyway, was just a first suggestion, and I did try to qualify it as much as possible. Perhaps "income" is better. Probably shouldn't have posted really it's just the term "benefits" irritates me greatly.
Click to expand...

How about "Universal Credit"? :hmm:
 
6357629535_7f90bb4348.jpg


I have waded into a conversation I am not equipped to deal with :oops:
 
Lord Camomile said:
Personally I also think it's just inaccurate and, possibly, disingenuous. There aren't "benefits" to needing help from the state to survive, and by calling it that it helps perpetuate the popular misconception that people are claiming through choice.

Something more like "assistance" would perhaps be more appropriate.
Click to expand...
"aid" (and therefore assistance) also carries negative connotations, makes you feel needy. Other options include: "my dues" , "tax rebate", "crumbs from the table", "pay-off", "blood money", "basically shut the fuck up income"
 
Kilgore Trout said:
Google thinks income is "money received, especially on a regular basis, for work or through investments".
Click to expand...

What Google has to say is immaterial. What matters is how the state would definite it.

What's the problem with calling it benefit in any case? I assume this is money paid out by the government we are talking about, so its a benefit.
Click to expand...

Is a tax rebate a benefit? Is an educational maintenance grant a benefit.

Try harder, please.
 
ViolentPanda said:
What Google has to say is immaterial. What matters is how the state would definite it.

Is a tax rebate a benefit? Is an educational maintenance grant a benefit.

Try harder, please.
Click to expand...

Moneys paid out by the state are mostly termed benefits: housing benefit, child benefit etc. Money paid to everyone could be called universal benefit.

A tax rebate is a return of money that has been overpaid so not a state benefit.

I don't mind the term Basic Grant if that's agreeable. Just not income as all the definitions relate to that being earned or from investments.

I'm not against the idea of a basic grant/benefit/assistance whatever. I'd love to chill at home. Just don't think its income as per the definition.
 
Kilgore Trout said:
Moneys paid out by the state are mostly termed benefits: housing benefit, child benefit etc. Money paid to everyone could be called universal benefit.

A tax rebate is a return of money that has been overpaid so not a state benefit.

I don't mind the term Basic Grant if that's agreeable. Just not income as all the definitions relate to that being earned or from investments.

I'm not against the idea of a basic grant/benefit/assistance whatever. I'd love to chill at home. Just don't think its income as per the definition.
Click to expand...
Basic income is earned. It's a return on investment of human capital into our society.. Google's definition fits.
 
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