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'Middle Class' it's basically just a construct isn't it...

IWCA, Militant for the post political landscape, fuck knows why so many anarchos have such a hard on for them? I mean Butchers what the fuck else is this but a statement of reformism

Right down to the Blairite language of it being a matter of pragmatism not principle.

Seriously the Socialist Party have a more revolutionary position and a more coherent program for implementing it.
Part 2 is awful. I agree, mondragon is always a danger. I want a serious criticism of the thing though. Not the only read the conclusion approach of the poster. I think the gap between that article and that activity is pretty evident. Which tells a tale in itself.
 
In my case it's because the IWCA's activity stands for direct action in the here and now; self organisation to win gains, rather than building up a political party that can one day form the government, as leftist parties want to do.

You do know that the Socialist Party also stand for direct action as well as election and they don't waste time running in mayoral elections nor do they put out utter drivel about working class control in working class communities as if it is a matter of spatial arrangements. They are also very active in the Unions.

Anarcho's are always suckers for form over content and a few buzzwords.
 
You do know that the Socialist Party also stand for direct action as well as election and they don't waste time running in mayoral elections nor do they put out utter drivel about working class control in working class communities as if it is a matter of spatial arrangements. They are also very active in the Unions.

Anarcho's are always suckers for form over content and a few buzzwords.
Indeed. How's your expertly crafted leaflet going?
 
What's wrong with that paul? You agree with that.

who is paul?

And no I don't agree with it at all, I'm pretty certain it isn't meant as a "communism is the real movement that abolishes existing relations" statement.

Seriously I fail to see how it's better than the Socialist Parties economic policy?
 
You do know that the Socialist Party also stand for direct action as well as election and they don't waste time running in mayoral elections nor do they put out utter drivel about working class control in working class communities as if it is a matter of spatial arrangements. They are also very active in the Unions.

Anarcho's are always suckers for form over content and a few buzzwords.

Are you a self-hating anarcho then?

It's the content of the IWCA actions where I was living (Oxford) which led to me getting involved. If it was all about the form I'd be put off by the rigmarole of, as you say, elections and manifestos. What about the 'form' of IWCA activity is likely to attract anarchoes? Most of my fellow anarchists in Oxford were politely horrified by the IWCA and seemed to assume that it was something borderline racist.

If the SP were doing direct action near me I'd probably get involved in that too, although, like I say, I don't trust the Leninist tradition and it's party building, whihc always has the grab for power behind it.
 
I 'm talking about form in terms of how they talk abou their work, using all those fluffy buzzwords anarchos love, y'know "community", "bottom up" and "self organisation" not to mention the whole "not political politics" shit.

As for getting involved with the IWCA or SP or whatever, well if you define getting involved as taking part in campaigns they are involved in then yeah only a sectarian muppet wouldn't "get involved", though that hardly stops you from being able to criticise them.

I think it's telling that you would be wary of the SP cos of their Leninist tradition (still got PTSD from Kronstadt?) rather than what they actually do in the here and now, which is no different from the IWCA.
 
saying that there have been a few campaigns in the past by the IWCA I wouldn't touch with a shitty stick and that's not even mentioning their son's and daughters local housing for local people shite.
 
I think it's telling that you would be wary of the SP cos of their Leninist tradition (still got PTSD from Kronstadt?) rather than what they actually do in the here and now, which is no different from the IWCA.
The Leninist parties' tradition isn't just something that belongs to the past. It defines how they relate to people nowadays. As an example, if you're active and within the orbit of a SP or SWP campaign, they'll eventually decide to either recruit you, use you as a useful (liberal) idiot or see you as a rival; and that's because a leninist party is a state-in-waiting and sees people as part of the means to its ends. The IWCA have not got this 'with us or against us' habit in their work, as far as I saw.
 
Part 2 is awful. I agree, mondragon is always a danger. I want a serious criticism of the thing though. Not the only read the conclusion approach of the poster. I think the gap between that article and that activity is pretty evident. Which tells a tale in itself.

I recall you saying that you were going to write a critique of it some time ago, did you ever manage to post/write that?
 
I think that is overly simplistic nonsense that reduces politics to good manners.

I think Random hit's the nail on the head with the comment "a leninist party is a state-in-waiting and sees people as part of the means to its ends."

Could you expand on your point regarding the IWCA and 'good manners'?
 
I recall you saying that you were going to write a critique of it some time ago, did you ever manage to post/write that?
Many critiques are being ignored here - it is their first line of defense.

The idea of bringing in a classless society is an old one, but it would cost too much to the socialist principles - the vast majority of people don't think that the concept of property has much need for change in principle, leaving only tax policy if they don't want to offend the vast majority of their electorate.

You have a choice: Impose your minority view on the majority (and become an authoritarian) or compromise and allow property to persist (making you a 'sell-out' to the dogmatic who refuse to countenance any such thing).

The question to ask is what would happen to those people who have squirreled away enough money to pay for a house so that they can pay for their retirement? Or maybe they did enough overtime to get a flat extension where they have a lodger which helps to pay the bills? Ignoring these issues and others which I listed earlier is just an example of ignorance - refusing to engage because they prefer to isolate themselves into irrelevant cliques - again ironically doing exactly what the enemies of freedom and change want them to do.

The abusive language is often a give away, showing you the ones who cannot actually construct arguments without using their favourite 'buzzwords'. Ironically they complain when others use buzzwords that they don't accept showing that they don't even recognise the basic rule of one rule for all, rather than the private law, privilege system they claim to be against.
 
false dichotomy alert
Apologies if so. As I understand it, in a 'socialist'/'communist' world the means of production would have to be either state owned or commonly owned. This would be opposed by the vast majority of the electorate and so would spell electoral disaster for Labour, or any party who even hinted at such rules.
 
'The world is X, I would like to change it to Y.'

'You can't do that, because the world is X.'
It is all very well having ideals which guide your politics, and then there is pretending that it can change when it obviously cannot. The whole world is based on people owning property and saving up for assets to see them through old age - markets are accepted as well and any party that tried to get elected based on abolishing these would not get elected. The ideals behind these ideas, like Christianity, are sweet, but they are dependent on everyone suddenly believing the dogma - another highly unlikely event.

The next step from being upset that everyone doesn't agree, is forcing one's opinion on them for their own good but that is not a step I can predict. Either way they lose. Better would be to engage in dialogue with all ideas open to question, and without the abuse. Stating the principles that you agree with and seeing where that gets us, rather than ignoring that part of the discussion.
 
'Let's get rid of the monarchy!'

'Whoa, hang on. What's the King going to say about that?'
A good example - we should just be a modern, progressive republic - it is by far the best system and is practised successfully elsewhere and yet getting rid of the Monarchy would seem a step too far for the majority and their opinion is what counts, and so the best course is not to get stuck in such ideology and to find a system where the royal family remain alive and kicking but just a figurehead. They would pay tax on income and on any land which is not being used. Maybe the Swedish model?
 
A good example - we should just be a modern, progressive republic - it is by far the best system and is practised successfully elsewhere and yet getting rid of the Monarchy would seem a step too far for the majority and their opinion is what counts, and so the best course is not to get stuck in such ideology and to find a system where the royal family remain alive and kicking but just a figurehead. They would pay tax on income and on any land which is not being used. Maybe the Swedish model?

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If only there was some sort of limited figurehead role for the Monarchy that allowed them to remain in the nominal position of chief parasite but in reality bowed to the whims of a parliamentary democracy. That would be awesome.
 
It is all very well having ideals which guide your politics, and then there is pretending that it can change when it obviously cannot. The whole world is based on people owning property and saving up for assets to see them through old age - markets are accepted as well and any party that tried to get elected based on abolishing these would not get elected. The ideals behind these ideas, like Christianity, are sweet, but they are dependent on everyone suddenly believing the dogma - another highly unlikely event.
<snip>
For the vast majority of human history in every part of the globe, this was not the case, yet capitalist social relations transformed things utterly.
You are ascribing permanence to a what is in historical terms a recent state of affairs, and one riddled with inherent contradictions that put it constant permanent crisis and seem likely to lead to eventual collapse. Far from being an "unlikely event", change has been ongoing (in, for example, the extension of the market into previously untouched spheres of human life) and more is certain to come; the question is whether we can make it for the better rather than allowing the dynamic of capitalism to reach its logical conclusion.
 
If only there was some sort of limited figurehead role for the Monarchy that allowed them to remain in the nominal position of chief parasite but in reality bowed to the whims of a parliamentary democracy. That would be awesome.
As I say, it would be ideal to get rid, but it is important to respect the democratic will which does not see them as a parasite - personally i would get rid of them tomorrow, but I recognise that I am in a minority...

More importantly, we should fix the sovereignty problem left over from history. It has failed to get to the people, stalling at parliament and thus keeping the UK as an oppressive regime. We need to fix this first and foremost, one cannot have a system based on oppression - we need one based on cooperation - everyone else has been moving towards such a system with varying degrees of success, but no one has just kept the old oppressive system, and then used that as a basis for analysis. It is the UK which stands out now as weird, and any analysis of it should be countered with international viewpoints from countries which are more successful such as France, South Korea and the Scandinavian models, etc.
For the vast majority of human history in every part of the globe, this was not the case, yet capitalist social relations transformed things utterly.
You are ascribing permanence to a what is in historical terms a recent state of affairs, and one riddled with inherent contradictions that put it constant permanent crisis and seem likely to lead to eventual collapse. Far from being an "unlikely event", change has been ongoing (in, for example, the extension of the market into previously untouched spheres of human life) and more is certain to come; the question is whether we can make it for the better rather than allowing the dynamic of capitalism to reach its logical conclusion.
It is relatively recent, that is true, which goes back to my comment about the world being a harsh place before, with many people having to eke a living from the land in conditions of terrible poverty.

No doubt there are challenges that need to be faced with this world we have but I do not see it as "likely to lead to eventual collapse" - change will continue but the concept of property and markets to organise the vast people and resources that exist will not, and it would serve the left better if they acknowledged this and moved onto other issues which are more realistic such as tax policy, how to ensure the supply of factors of production is facilitated to keep its costs down, legalising and deregulating so that markets remain competitive etc.

As you allude to, capitalism tends towards control and that has to be countered by government, human rights and a constructive system.

At the moment the so-called 'left' are marginalising themselves by refusing to talk to anyone who doesn't use their version of 'fluffy buzzwords'. It's the same with the religious, they want to talk about 'sin' all the time and point to their book as the answer too. At least they don't abuse as a default position though so maybe it is a comparison which is unfair on the Christians.
 
Stone cold classic that one Gmart. The left should deregulate markets?
I am not arguing that they should be left unregulated, just that in principle there should be unrestricted entrance to markets. For example the regulations for getting a licence to start a bank cost millions apparently. The left need to support small businesses to thrive, not regulate them into the ground - that is where the jobs could come from.
 
<snip>

No doubt there are challenges that need to be faced with this world we have but I do not see it as "likely to lead to eventual collapse" - change will continue but the concept of property and markets to organise the vast people and resources that exist will not, and it would serve the left better if they acknowledged this and moved onto other issues which are more realistic such as tax policy, how to ensure the supply of factors of production is facilitated to keep its costs down, legalising and deregulating so that markets remain competitive etc.
What basis do you have for thinking concepts of property and markets won't change? Are we at some end-point of the teleological rise of the bourgeois? No-one wants a doctor to treat just the symptoms and leave the causes of the sickness alone; and it would be a dishonest and useless strategy in anything beyond the very short term to do that.
 
What basis do you have for thinking concepts of property and markets won't change? Are we at some end-point of the teleological rise of the bourgeois? No-one wants a doctor to treat just the symptoms and leave the causes of the sickness alone; and it would be a dishonest and useless strategy in anything beyond the very short term to do that.
How could it change? People want to own their own house and see the building up of such assets as insurance for their old age. How is that likely to change? The same with markets, the idea of mutually beneficial exchange has not changed for thousands of years.
It is easy to suggest that it might change, but how? Are people going to stop wanting a place to live? No. Are they going to accept a central organisation of property? Probably not. Tax could change and I earlier suggested a tax system based on square metrage (to deafening silence as ever here). Markets are the same - will people stop exchanging for mutual gain? No. Will they stop using money as a means for exchange? Maybe it will switch to smart cards or something like that, but without a huge disaster of epic proportions it is just convenient to use a medium of exchange. Maybe a barter system might be used for those without money, but only if everything breaks down, which is also highly unlikely.
 
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