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'Middle Class' it's basically just a construct isn't it...

Excellent essays. In fact, the most coherent and well-thought-through writing on the topic I've read.
Before I have too much of a look, can I ask if the description early on:
an explicitly pro-working class vision
is going to result in a series of laws which accord a privilege to the working class? If so then how is this not replacing one authoritarian system with another? Surely the idea of dividing people along illusory lines is intrinsically divisive and should be avoided. A sort of positive discrimination which really just replaces who is under foot?
I just ask because that's the second line
I'll go and have a better look now.
 
Before I have too much of a look, can I ask if the description early on:

is going to result in a series of laws which accord a privilege to the working class? If so then how is this not replacing one authoritarian system with another? Surely the idea of dividing people along illusory lines is intrinsically divisive and should be avoided. A sort of positive discrimination which really just replaces who is under foot?
I just ask because that's the second line
I'll go and have a better look now.
Big round of applause for gmart for getting to the second line. He's getting better. And of course he misses the point that due to thae material circumstances that he defends his prized law works differently for different people, it's just hidden by rubbish like the law and a fair days pay. That it's his law that does exactly what he's moaning about.
 
Before I have too much of a look, can I ask if the description early on:

is going to result in a series of laws which accord a privilege to the working class? If so then how is this not replacing one authoritarian system with another? Surely the idea of dividing people along illusory lines is intrinsically divisive and should be avoided. A sort of positive discrimination which really just replaces who is under foot?
I just ask because that's the second line
I'll go and have a better look now.
No. Although part one is a bit strident in tone, don't let that put you off. It's a sober and well researched analysis of how a democratic economy can be (and has been) enacted. Rational and Emperical :)
 
Meh. Skip part one entirely and jump straight to part 2 of part 2, I reckon. Good summary. Loads of unanswered questions.
 
Meh. Skip part one entirely and jump straight to part 2 of part 2, I reckon. Good summary. Loads of unanswered questions.
Part one is noted in the text as the 'why', while part 2 is the how and what.
No. Although part one is a bit strident in tone, don't let that put you off. It's a sober and well researched analysis of how a democratic economy can be (and has been) enacted. Rational and Emperical :)
I read the first part, I enjoyed it - some of the history I knew, but was good to remember - took some time to read properly and to think about though :)
No doubt the right are in the ascendency - they have grabbed the opportunity in a changing the world while the left was/is learning how not to become an authoritarian ideology. The day to day 'working class' (or poor) has been left uneducated by the system that failed them, and are therefore easy fodder for the right wing easy answers. That is not to say that we should repeat the mistake and provide easy answers for ourselves - we should grab the rational wing, stick to science and oppose the religious - don't emulate them.

What is the goal?

Good question - there is a place for a caring answer, but only with a reasonable system in place - I ask these questions on the Social Contract all the time to deafening silence: What are the principles we all agree on? What are the key problems of modern life? Socialism remains a reasonable ideal to start from, because it is intrinsically cooperative as opposed to the self-orientated right wing. There has to be a place for both though. Any solution without finding an accord between these sides is going to fail. People who have made money, want to enjoy the fruits of their labour and without them no election can be won. With 70% property ownership we need to recognise the need to tread carefully if attempting to grab the 'change' vote.

[The left's] adherence to undemocratic, top-down and fundamentally anti-working class methods.

The left's reluctance to embrace freedom because it might limit their authoritarian tendencies are evident. It implies that there is no trust of the people, and without that there can be no cooperation.

We all just want a system that works first and foremost, and it shouldn't be beyond us to work one out. We can apply our brains the same as anyone else but only if we accept the need to cooperate rather than being at war. There is no doubt that when sovereignty passed from monarch to parliament it was a natural evolution towards popular sovereignty, but it has been stopped and we are all victims of this evolutionary red light.

They saw the working class as a potential winning horse in history, albeit one that needed the firm hand of a middle class jockey.

Stereotypes are so dramatic.

The question is whether the contract was entered into freely or not - maybe there is more, but that is a basic. So long as the contract is freely entered into, that is a reasonable minimum. We all are slaves if you perceive life as a trap! In other words, if you look for invisible enemies, you will always find them.

That quote by Keynes says it all - he recognises the oppression and yet due to the lack of education the system has provided even on a basic level, he refuses to consider the idea of reform.... He was right that our system is still basically oppressive and therefore violent and in rebellion. This won't change until the sovereignty issue is dealt with. The more anger there is, the tighter the authoritarians will grip.

The article rightly points out that it was the left who handed in a state monopoly to their successors after WW2. This is another problem - London is everything now and even in law London local authorities are now treated differently to the rest of the country (see the Localism Act). As good an example of privilege as exists.

Freedom is a rare and delicate plant. Our minds tell us, and history confirms, that the great threat to freedom is the concentration of power. Government is necessary to preserve our freedom, it is an instrument through which we can exercise our freedom; yet by concentrating power in political hands, it is also a threat to freedom. Friedman

Only makes sense if applied to a society where the sovereignty has passed from the archaic rulers to the eventual sovereign: the people. Systems cannot be based on oppression, people just rebel which is anathema to cooperation. Every society needs an idealistic basis before anything else -agreed principles enabling the people rather than seeing them as a resource to control. Everyone has to be equal in law, with the freedom to speak as they like, look where they like and decide if they want to talk to invisible friends or enemies, or not.

I would suggest that having checks against uncontrolled power is a reasonable position, that is what regulation is for, but the systems need to be logical and efficient. Interesting that both Friedman and Popper came to the same conclusion about this need

If anything explains the parting of ways between the left and the working class, then, at bottom, it is this: the adherence by the left to undemocratic, top-down and fundamentally anti-working class methods.

It is as if the 'working class' are the only people allowed to suffer. How about the poor? Is that too broad? By emphasising that group, anyone who is not a member feels omitted from that passage and will look to another party to represent their greivances.

Mont Pelerin - Hayek getting everyone together for a chin wag.

Shows the need to cooperate rather than abuse each other for fun.
 
And in addition to offering the best, and only, prospect for freedom and democracy, it is also the natural, organic development of the market economy which has made possible the complex division of labour we see today, all organised in a voluntary, non-coercive manner by the mysterious genius of the price mechanism, something a centrally directed economy could never hope to match.

The important point here is that the price system will fulfil this function only if competition prevails, that is, if the individual producer has to adapt himself to price changes and cannot control them… This shows the evident need for regulation of the markets to ensure that market share is minimised - a good topic for a discussion in itself. No doubt the commercial entities are organised, that is how things get done: through organisation, but the profit motive (and the assumed unlimited resources) is a simple game to play, and the urge towards market share is just as logical, all government has to do is to ensure that these entities don't get too big and make sure there is support for small businesses to set up.

It must exercise control over what is sold. It must exercise control over what is supplied. It must replace the market with planning… Galbraith

It is not replacing the market with planning - that goes too far - the price the market offers, reflects the correct indicator of worth. Market share, and therefore monopoly represents the most likely area of abuse of the consumer, especially in markets which provide essentials. There are few real monopolies though. For example Windows is close and even that has a limit on the reasonable price it can charge - a thousand quid for a single licence would be too much and would seriously impact their control of the market - their competition would be in there like a shot. The market is not the problem, it is the system which surrounds it and its lack of organisation and flexibility. Markets are a way of life for everyone: that war is lost.

Economic development has almost always depended not on the free market, but on state intervention in the economy, up to and including the development of IT, the internet and biotechnology

Not a surprise that - the Germans, French and the Koreans organise and command their economies much better than us, (with maybe a bit too cosy a relationship with the unions). They are societies who have learned to cooperate effectively with a population which accepts the need to work together to make their country better. Investment and organisation with a broad viewpoint is a great method. Systems can be created and run well if the population is on board and not rebelling.

His labour is therefore not voluntary, but coerced; it is forced labour. Marx

And we are forced to live too - to obtain limited food - it is exactly this sort of statement which alienates the left. People may be 'imprisoned in life' but the system of government is not there to help redress that unfairness either.

The expropriation of the land created the large landholdings the nascent capitalists needed, and turned the previously independent peasants into landless proletarians who had to sell their labour-power if they were to survive.

Implies that before this event people were just lazing around in some sort of utopia. Obviously not, they were eking out a living from the land in desperate poverty - they had relatively unlimited resources and were not numerous enough to impact too much (some environmental damage was done). As numbers rose the competition for land got intense and it was taken - all such land grabs from both sides are anathema to a modern system. Land is a limited resource and thus should be regulated to facilitate supply through tax. Cooperatives might have better tax liability to promote such models, but any kind of land grab would rightly be fought because most people do not see property as 'theft' - that war has also been lost.

Once we begin to look at our system as one that is consciously planned rather than impersonally directed by market forces, some essentially political questions come to the fore. Who will do the managing? For whose benefit? What will be the goals? Who will set them? How?”

Who regulates has to be an elected government. It is not reasonable to argue that we can leave the system to self-govern - (Friedman himself argues for a basic level of government) and if we recognise that the competitive market tends towards monopoly then there has to be an institution which is able to deal with this.

“third and last emancipatory phase of history” -the first having made serfs out of slaves, the second wage earners out of serfs- which will transform the proletariat into free men by eliminating the commodity character of labour, ending wage slavery and bringing the commercial, industrial and financial institutions under democratic control[...]the “transformation of the proletariat into free men”

If I want to hire a plumber then that is part of freedom even if the service is seen as a commodity. The plumber is free to decide if he wants to provide his/her service in exactly the same way as i am free to look for a cheaper one. This is rational and free - it is not 'wage slavery' because it is a contract that both parties are free to enter/leave. Until the 'left' starts to drop these phrases they will never connect with the electorate. It cannot be a matter of paying people just for existing - the left needs to be seen as the party of change and progress, not the party for those people who don't want to work for a living, or just creating pretend jobs in government. This omits everyone constructively involved in the running of the country.

Of course with a few adjustments we might get to the crux of it - maybe we are talking about the unskilled who are abused because they are on the bottom of the pile and are facing a market which pays them little respect. An argument for better rights for workers maybe (closer to the EU anyone?) but above all education and training for those who wish to enskill themselves.

But if one has a coherent philosophy, one can then begin the long process of building a practical economic model, and then a political strategy for attaining it.

Any solution has to be rational as well as inclusive. There is no point putting forward a solution where the man underfoot is simply changed for one's favourite scapegoat.

Nothing less will now do and, unlike Hayek who so successfully stole the language of freedom, we actually mean it.

It has to be freedom for all, not just freedom for a group of people at the expense of others.

Earlier you said that Marx's prophecies should be let go - I agree - it was a long time ago, bits were right and have been absorbed by culture, bits were wrong and should be let go. The same can be said for history - what has happened has happened, especially over a hundred years ago. The emphasis has to be on the present and the organised, inclusive movement towards a better system.
 
okay i'll coment directly, you're a moronic muppet who imagines that class and all the other nasty things in society can just be abolished by some wishful thinking, by pretending they aren't there.

Like I said a total tard.
 
okay i'll coment directly, you're a moronic muppet who imagines that class and all the other nasty things in society can just be abolished by some wishful thinking, by pretending they aren't there.

Like I said a total tard.
And how's that working out for you? Just abusing people when they don't say what you agree with?
I am not in denial as to the suffering that is evidence in the UK and elsewhere. I am stating that any solution has to be cooperative rather than replacing one group of people underfoot with another. What kind of redress do you have in mind ideally? Line them up? Put the bankers in the stocks? Take away all the money from the rich? If it isn't freedom for all then it is just another version of authoritarianism, except this time you and your friends get to be the abusers?
 
vaguely on this subject... the spanish tories were claiming the other day that the government tax on property, levied on people with 700,000€ in property and investments not including their primary residences, was "a tax on the middle class". Essentially, constructing that social class in such a way as to claim people with savings equivalent to 35 times the average annual salary formed a part of the "popular classes".
 
Part one is noted in the text as the 'why', while part 2 is the how and what.

And part one never managed to justify the why. There are good reasons to look at parts of part 2... but the reasons in part one are not them.

Part 2 explains the "what" very well with good examples.. but doesn't really explain "how" this can be implemented on a wider scale.

The core contain very good ideas, however, and with a but of tweaking and a "nudge" here and there it would make a very good read.
 
vaguely on this subject... the spanish tories were claiming the other day that the government tax on property, levied on people with 700,000€ in property and investments not including their primary residences, was "a tax on the middle class". Essentially, constructing that social class in such a way as to claim people with savings equivalent to 35 times the average annual salary formed a part of the "popular classes".

Downgrading of the upper class?
 
is going to result in a series of laws which accord a privilege to the working class? If so then how is this not replacing one authoritarian system with another? Surely the idea of dividing people along illusory lines is intrinsically divisive and should be avoided. A sort of positive discrimination which really just replaces who is under foot?
Gmart, the aim of communism is to destroy all class divisions, not to simply turn them on their head. I'd guess that the IWCA vision of total social change also implies a classless society.
 
Gmart, the aim of communism is to destroy all class divisions, not to simply turn them on their head. I'd guess that the IWCA vision of total social change also implies a classless society.

They're sub-socialist. Their ideas don't go anywhere near total social change, let alone a classless society. And they have a reactionary tendency.
 
They're sub-socialist. Their ideas don't go anywhere near total social change, let alone a classless society. And they have a reactionary tendency.
The IWCA approach is about dealing with the most pressing problems in the here and now, but total social change is the aim.
 
The IWCA approach is about dealing with the most pressing problems in the here and now, but total social change is the aim.

Where do they say that?

IWCA are communitarians who believe the w/c can't do anything better than try to get a better slice of the pie, just like all the other reformists, including New Labour.
 
Where do they say that?

IWCA are communitarians who believe the w/c can't do anything better than try to get a better slice of the pie, just like all the other reformists, including New Labour.
Why are you such a shit loon? Back to your loon edl stuff please. If you've got anything serious, let's hear it. If.
 
IWCA are communitarians who believe the w/c can't do anything better than try to get a better slice of the pie, just like all the other reformists, including New Labour.
No, the IWCA objective is explicitly stated to be total social change, through means such as the application of democracy to the economy.
 
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