Basic Income

[eoin_k]

Emphasis on "member".

Never to achieve his clear potential to become a 'well known member'.

 

[Santino]

When did he join? It only seems like Yesterday.

 

[ska invita]

Interesting suggestion this
Axe personal allowance and pay everyone £48 a week, says thinktank
backed by McDonnell
means tested (everyone earning under 125k ) gets £48 a week on top of existing benefit structure, but in place of the tax-free personal allowance. Looks a lot like slight of hand, take from one pot give to the other...but the "88% of all adults would see their post-tax income rise or stay the same, helping to lift 200,000 families across the country out of poverty" suggests 12% of people, most likely highest earners, would lose out (good) and get taxed a bit more.

I wonder though how you physically receive the £48 pounds. Also is it universal or do you have to be in employment? Not clear from the article.

So overall sounds a bit like fiddling about rather than any major change, but sounds like it would introduce the principle of basic income and sounds like low incomers would be a bit better off, and richer people pay more tax.

re personal allowance: supposedly (more on it in that thread)


---


Also

What is There to Learn From Finland’s Basic Income Experiment? Did It Succeed or Fail?

 

[MickiQ]

It says in the first couple of paragraphs every adult over 18, not replacing benefits and not dependent on having a job. I don't know how it would be paid but I would imagine you will need a bank account and it will get paid into it at regular intervals hopefully getting a choice of weekly or monthly).
For the vast majority of people it will make no difference since the cost to the state and the benefit to the individual will basically be the same.
There will be an extra cost involved in paying it to non-working adults or those earning less than that but hopefully much if not all of that would be offset by higher rate taxpayers paying a bit more due to them both losing their personal allowance and paying more due to the higher band threshold falling.
I think this is a frigging brilliant idea, As the robots take more and more jobs we are at some point in the future going to have to move to a proper basic income with working becoming optional and this seems like an easy step along that road.

 

[Badgers]

Apparently this week is 'International Basic Income Week' probably the right time for this to really be pushed

Just had an email from the good chaps at Action Network but I doubt it will get a big turnout in these covid times.

Basic Income Week

Join us for Basic Income March. Our economy is leaving millions behind. Join the people powered movement to send the message that our society and economy needs to evolve to meet the challenges of the 21st century. Get involved. Get inspired. Together, we can make historic change.

www.basicincomemarch.com

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Basic income would be amazing in a just society. Not sure how it would work where profit is king as that concept goes against that of a free market economy. A type of Fordism where money can be distributed as discounts against certain goods?

 

[RhedwrBontgoch]

I'm quit tempted by the principle, but fear it would be too hard to sell to our current society. A lot of groundwork needed to persuade people it's doable.

 

[Marty1]

Thread was a bit of a mess, tbh. I'm surprised there was negative feeling about it, too. How about we give it another go (unless you find the bigger thread)?

Definition of basic income: a universal payment to every citizen of the country whether they work or not, rich or poor, whatever. It would be set high enough that you could live on this (so a 'living wage'?), paying for housing, food, bills, etc. If you want to work, then you keep your basic income in full, and your wages top it up (subject to the normal deductions and so on). This is how I understand it working from the little I've read on it so far. No other benefits would exist. Please correct me if I'm wrong!

Here's why I think it would be good: If there was a BI set at a level that people didn't need to work then obviously a proportion of the country would stop working. I don't see this as a problem. There's not enough jobs to go around at the minute, so this would ease some of the pressure on those who actually want to work by reducing applicants. I would hope that the days of 1500 applicants for coffee shop jobs would be over. Of course there will still be people who want to work in coffee shops and other unskilled jobs. Perhaps just a day or two a week to give themselves a bit more spending money?

One thing that gets mentioned occasionally on here is job sharing. This is currently impractical as most people can't afford to halve their wages, and the employer is not going to pay two people each a salary to do the job that one person can do. With a BI, then anyone could afford to share their job. Job sharing advantages: two people, two perspectives/skill sets; time off can be arranged between the two workers, and you have cover for sickness and when one person leaves. I'm sure there would also be environmental benefits if something like this was widespread like fewer cars on the road.

The minimum wage would be able to be scrapped as there would be no need to do shit jobs for inhumane wages. If a job was truly shit, but essential, then the employer would have to offer a wage sufficient enough to tempt people into it. But that still might end up being a low rate? Who knows. It may be that some jobs don't exist at the minute because nobody would pay someone the minimum wage to do it - perhaps at £2ph it becomes worth it, and someone somewhere wouldn't mind doing the job for that rate. But they'd choose to do it, as they don't need the money, it would just be a bit extra to top up their BI.

I did have some more thoughts on this, but I've taken so long to type this I've forgotten. Will try to remember later on.

Anyone think this is a good idea?
Why are my ideas above wrong?

Yeah, fuck it, trial it here first in the U.K.

Be great to see companies like Amazon having to pay people what the jobs really worth + extra to entice people - be a bit like reverse exploitation.

 

[ddraig]

Senedd backs call for UBI
https://seneddhome.com/2020/10/sene...asic-income-trial-but-its-unlikely-to-happen/

 

[Doodler]

UB might be better than make-work schemes designed to keep people occupied. A lot of the work offered by the Community Programme in the 1980s had that feel to it, although some friends ended up repairing dry stone walls for farmers, which they generally enjoyed doing and thought useful.

ETA: but can't help feel that there is a kind of pragmatic fatalism to UB. as if to say capital has won forever and the best hope is to be given a stipend and left alone.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Apparently this week is 'International Basic Income Week' probably the right time for this to really be pushed

Just had an email from the good chaps at Action Network but I doubt it will get a big turnout in these covid times.

Basic Income Week

Join us for Basic Income March. Our economy is leaving millions behind. Join the people powered movement to send the message that our society and economy needs to evolve to meet the challenges of the 21st century. Get involved. Get inspired. Together, we can make historic change.

www.basicincomemarch.com

I wonder if introducting a decedent basic income now would be cheaper than the piecemeal scatter gun approach this govt has to spending billions supporting some jobs / industries?

 

[Badgers]

Always has been, always will be.

 

[bellaozzydog]

I think it's a stupid idea. It would lead to even greater social division, no-one would do the shit jobs, it would create even more massive resentment to those who want to work but can't (strivers vs skivers on steroids) and there's no way we'd ever be able to pay for it. Why bother working if you'd be taxed from the first pound at 50% or whatever it would need to fund it?

have you read anything on it? Studies, actual small scale experiments etc?

 

[ddraig]

have you read anything on it? Studies, actual small scale experiments etc?

Filter's post from 2013
Maybe/hopefully they've changed their view!
Hope Filter is well whatever

 

[Duncan2]

The main reason I am in favour of BI is that it has the potential to prevent a fairly appalling waste of life.Graeber called them bullshit jobs and there is no doubt that big employers can easily afford to have scores of workers hanging about just hoping to be given something to do to while away their forty hours. Where work fluctuates from hour to hour and season to season this is probably necessary to some extent but it really isn't good for the mental health of individual workers many of whom these days are over-qualified and well capable of putting their time to good use could they afford to do so.Bring on BI I would say.

 

[Wolveryeti]

I am more hopeful of rental/housing reform as a route to bettering people's lives than UBI. Too easy for apparently beneficial increases in income to be totally swallowed up in rent due to our totally dysfunctional housing market.

Also agree with those who are saying that the politically feasible level of UBI will not be enough to deliver realistic economic freedom (i.e. choice to not do exploitative jobs) to the majority of the working population.

 

[ska invita]

Could Scots be guaranteed a minimum income?

The government is to start work on plans for an income guarantee scheme aimed at wiping out poverty in Scotland.

www.bbc.co.uk

"An MIG differs from a UBI in important ways. Crucially, it is targeted at those on lower incomes, rather than being universal.
It would be paid out via a variety of sources, including tax reliefs, social security benefits and services in kind, like childcare and transport."

...

The IPPR suggested a "core entitlement" of £792 for a single person of working age per month, or £1,224 for a couple, with a further payment of £267 for the first child in a household and £224 for each additional child. These figures would "taper off" if an adult in the household was in work.
However, the exact figures could fluctuate based on the cost of things like food and housing. For example, if rents were to go up substantially, the housing payment part of the MIG would need to rise as well.
One of the key challenges in working out an MIG scheme would be calculating what constitutes a minimum acceptable income in any given time or place.

...

Meanwhile, the IPPR report targets having an MIG in place by 2030 - so towards the end of the next parliamentary term.

....

*By making it so means tested and reduced even if low paid working doesnt that massively disincentivise low paid work? It would be interesting to see how much more somoeone on full benefits in Scotland gets vs this new figure - whats the difference?And the crucial difference is does it bin the need to jump through Job Seekers hoops etc?

 

[kabbes]

My concern with this MIG versus a UI is that it just subsidises employers who can then get away with paying less than a living wage. And the usual problems with non-universal benefits: they are always on the back foot politically.

 

[ska invita]

MIG looks like a watered down BI, but if the amount of money is equal or better than at present and you don't have to do all the job seeker sanctions crap then on that alone its a massive step forward

*The bit about how you get the money is potentially dodgy too... Depends how big the cash element is

 

[Badgers]

My concern with this MIG versus a UI is that it just subsidises employers who can then get away with paying less than a living wage. And the usual problems with non-universal benefits: they are always on the back foot politically.

So the government needs to regulate better you say?

 

[kabbes]

So the government needs to regulate better you say?

Or killing with fire

 

[Part 2]

Wales to trial basic income with care leavers.

Basic income pilot scheme for care leavers to be trialled in Wales

Young people leaving care to be offered £1600 a month for two years from the month after their 18th birthday

www.theguardian.com

 

[ska invita]

Wales to trial basic income with care leavers.

Basic income pilot scheme for care leavers to be trialled in Wales

Young people leaving care to be offered £1600 a month for two years from the month after their 18th birthday

www.theguardian.com

good amount, £1600 a month IIRC

 

[8ball]

I hope they get supported properly. Having this money for two years and then being abruptly cut off could be a real problem even for kids with no history of trauma etc.

 

[Part 2]

I hope they get supported properly. Having this money for two years and then being abruptly cut off could be a real problem even for kids with no history of trauma etc.

Yea, having worked with care leavers for over 20 years, I'm undecided whether they're the best study group.

I've seen young people blow massive amounts of compensation money in very short spaces of time. They'll have a lot of friends.

 

[8ball]

Yea, having worked with care leavers for over 20 years, I'm undecided whether they're the best study group.

I've seen young people blow massive amounts of compensation money in very short spaces of time. They'll have a lot of friends.

Well, at least it doesn't come all at once, I suppose.