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Basic Income

Not had the chance to read this to the end yet, but it looks like a very good take-down of the Finnish UBI experiment - a dagger pointed at the heart of the welfare state:

The UBI Bait and Switch | Jacobin

It's a bit of an odd article IMO. There's a lot about the political background behind what they're doing, the intentions in the implementation, and the differing views of the various parties, but nothing at all on what the actual results of the experiment were.
 
It's a bit of an odd article IMO. There's a lot about the political background behind what they're doing, the intentions in the implementation, and the differing views of the various parties, but nothing at all on what the actual results of the experiment were.
the pilot scheme only jut started the other day
 
the pilot scheme only jut started the other day

It's massively overstating it's case then IMO - there's valid points about the different reasons for promoting the idea but something like this:

In December, the government’s UBI experiment was enacted into law. By early January — after Kela randomly selected two thousand people from its unemployment rolls and informed them of their mandatory participation in the experiment — the government had made its first monthly UBI payment.

And just like that, what started as the dream proposal of left-leaning wonks everywhere had, once filtered through the political process, mutated into the UBI-as-workhouse nightmare.

Is something to suggest once you have some actual evidence of the outcome IMO.
 
It's massively overstating it's case then IMO - there's valid points about the different reasons for promoting the idea but something like this:

Is something to suggest once you have some actual evidence of the outcome IMO.
just checked, the pilot started 1st jan 2017

i cant read the article at the moment to comment
 
It's a bit of an odd article IMO. There's a lot about the political background behind what they're doing, the intentions in the implementation, and the differing views of the various parties, but nothing at all on what the actual results of the experiment were.
I hate to take your attention away from the bright shiny object you are besotted with, but it's an article about the current state of play regarding the Finnish UBI project and its broader political context. From that, we should be able to extrapolate the further, future trajectory of that project - and I don't think the results of that trajectory are going to be encouraging for anyone who believes that societies should be geninely free and equal.
 
I hate to take your attention away from the bright shiny object you are besotted with, but it's an article about the current state of play regarding the Finnish UBI project and its broader political context. From that, we should be able to extrapolate the further, future trajectory of that project - and I don't think the results of that trajectory are going to be encouraging for anyone who believes that societies should be geninely free and equal.

Bright shiny object? I don't think you'll find any massive enthusiasm for basic income from me anywhere on here so I've no idea what you're on about there. Personally I'd share that scepticism tbh and they might well be right in the end. That doesn't mean I have to agree with the whole article though.
 
Not had the chance to read this to the end yet, but it looks like a very good take-down of the Finnish UBI experiment - a dagger pointed at the heart of the welfare state:

The UBI Bait and Switch | Jacobin
you should read it really, because its a terrible article. Despite all the emotive negative language and insinuation it doesn't put forward any evidence that its a bad thing, or not working positively for the people involved.

The one incriminating piece of information seems to be that the 'Centre' party are interested to see the effect on UBI on those in long term unemployment, and how it might support low paying jobs. So what? That's great if you're in a low paying job - and many of us are and always will be.

I'm over 40 now, and I've never earned more than £10 per hour. I've signed on twice in my life for a few months, with no savings. Both when signing and now working, if I was to receive £600 a month I'd be delighted. That doesn't make it a "workhouse nightmare", it changes my quality of life for the better in unimaginable ways. I'd love that "workhouse nightmare"!!

If UBI becomes dependent on x y and z job seeking hoops (which already exist for our shitty dole), then thats a worry, but thats not what's happened here, and not what should ever be suggested with UBI. The Universal bit means its Universal, and doesn't require anything of the person receiving it.

Im all up for being critical about UBI, but that article above, nor the one you posted before, have got anything in them to go on.
 
The suggestion is that it will allow - no, encourage - capital to create shit jobs with low pay with state subsidy (effectively a tax on the w/c) and growth in low-paying jobs acts a a drag anchor on wages generally. Not that it would support people already working for low wages.
 
Not sure capital needs encouragement on that front. In fact, with a fallback of £600 a month, Id expect there to be less desperation to take up shit jobs.

The long term effects on an economy/society are un-modelable really. There are so many variables.
 
Not sure capital needs encouragement on that front. In fact, with a fallback of £600 a month, Id expect there to be less desperation to take up shit jobs.

The long term effects on an economy/society are un-modelable really. There are so many variables.
It needing encouragement to act in that way is neither here nor there really - it will take it when it's offered on such charitable terms. My point though was that the article didn't say the proposers of the move were doing it to support low paid workers. Quite the opposite.

How do you see tax credits working in this country btw? Most people view them as an indirect subsidy to capital taken - in part at least - from those low paid workers it allows to work for such shit wages and the rest from other workers in general. Any reason why that same dynamic wouldn't apply here?
 
Not sure capital needs encouragement on that front. In fact, with a fallback of £600 a month, Id expect there to be less desperation to take up shit jobs.

The long term effects on an economy/society are un-modelable really. There are so many variables.
Capital needs desperate people to take shit jobs. If the desperate really save from one sort of desperation because they had £600 big ones a month, don't you think some other form of desperation would be arranged?
 
How do you see tax credits working in this country btw? Most people view them as an indirect subsidy to capital taken - in part at least - from those low paid workers it allows to work for such shit wages and the rest from other workers in general. Any reason why that same dynamic wouldn't apply here?

Tax credits make it affordable for people to work in low paid work as a subsidy against said shit wage.
I can see that.
Same is true for housing benefit of course, which is ploughing huge amounts of tax money into landlords hands and propping up rental/housing market prices.

But maybe the issue here is just how much you get in the UBI. £600 is a good sum. I'd expect its a huge amount more than you might get in a tax credit payment.

The question for me boils down to would the unemployed and workers in low paid jobs be better or worse off. If they're better off, then that counts for a lot in my book. A step up is a step up.

Would UBI create a broader wage suppression/depression? Would it have an inflationary effect that would cancel out the benefits? Others have theorised on this, and not surprisingly those who want UBI to succeed reckon it will all be better than fine. Their work is out there....

The thing is its impossible to know until its tried.

Use your imagination. Capital will.
ive got enough to worry about to start worrying about all the ills of the world that are yet to be invented
 
The question for me boils down to would the unemployed and workers in low paid jobs be better or worse off. If they're better off, then that counts for a lot in my book. A step up is a step up.

The thing is its impossible to know until its tried.
Capital would ensure that it is pitched at their 'sweet-spot' that would simultaneously stimulate aggregate demand (consumption) whilst not dissuading too many people to abandon the work-force. So my guess would be little different for the former, but possibly lower for the latter; remember that UBI would see all other benefits go by the wayside.
IMO the key to understanding UBI is appreciating that corp taxes will be so low and rich individual tax dodging so high that UBI will merely represent the churning of demand within the economically active population.
 
BTW you still get housing benefit on top of UBI in the Finnish experiment, IIRC

I think £600 is probably a bit above that 'sweet spot' amount, in that other programs have considered lower levels, and explicitly said what youve said - that they dont want anyone to be better off than they are now! I forget where and when that was now, but its probably back in this thread somewhere.... The amount dished out makes a huge difference as to the nature of it IMO.
 
BTW you still get housing benefit on top of UBI in the Finnish experiment, IIRC

I think £600 is probably a bit above that 'sweet spot' amount, in that other programs have considered lower levels, and explicitly said what youve said - that they dont want anyone to be better off than they are now! I forget where and when that was now, but its probably back in this thread somewhere.... The amount dished out makes a huge difference as to the nature of it IMO.

Yes; crucial...obviously.

IMO (again), unless there is another financial melt-down, we won't see its like until corp tax is (officially) much closer to zero; capital would have to be assured that they will not be seeing any threat to their accumulation from the demand stimulation package.
 
If UBI becomes dependent on x y and z job seeking hoops (which already exist for our shitty dole), then thats a worry, but thats not what's happened here, and not what should ever be suggested with UBI. The Universal bit means its Universal, and doesn't require anything of the person receiving it.
Apart from it's not universal is it. It's 2000 people who are unemployed and typically have been unemployed for a long time.

And the Government introducing this pilot has said itself that the aim is to
“Social security needs to be developed to secure the basic subsistence for each person as well as to encourage people to seek and accept work. The impact of a universal basic income system must be tested and developed through regional trials.”
 
Indeed, these things depend on so many other pieces of the puzzle, like affordable quality housing or good quality, cheap public transport, low prices of decent quality food and so on. On average, even in what is now a neo-lib Netherlands, these things are better than in the UK by far...

Of course, laws can be changed - depending on all else - politicians' minds in particular...
 
Soft left response, and not without its problems, but worth a read.

No need for basic income: Five policies to deal with the threat of technological unemployment
27 March 2017
The core idea of the basic income is based on a libertarian view of society. Implementing it would individualize many aspects of our daily lives that are currently organized collectively. The policy mix proposed above, on the other hand, would not just provide effective protection against the potential downsides of the digital revolution but at the same time create tools to strengthen communities and reduce inequality.

The debate about how to respond to the digital revolution in policy terms will be one of the crucial discussions in the years to come. Basic income is just one – and highly problematic for the reasons outlined here. There are also other ways to address this issue.
 
Soft left response, and not without its problems, but worth a read.

No need for basic income: Five policies to deal with the threat of technological unemployment
27 March 2017
The case against UBI made there is a weak one, and I cant be bothered to make a counter argument on my lunch break but to address the positive case:

First, education systems clearly need to adapt more to new economic realities than they have so far. Education should be less about memorizing/retaining information and more focused on turning that information into knowledge as well as teaching transferable creative, analytical and social skills. Technical skills might become obsolete very quickly but the ability to be creative, adapt and engage in continuous learning will always remain valuable.
Fine, good luck. Theres a hundred ways education should be different, little ever seems to change, but lets leave that for now.

Second, if there is large-scale technological unemployment, re-allocating the remaining work should be a first step. It might not be the 15-hour work week that John Maynard Keynes envisaged for his grandchildren but where possible such a policy would make sense and be a first re-balancing tool.
What does that mean in practice? Sounds like shorter working week / job sharing. That results in massive wage cuts which leads back to UBI. In fact this is an expected consequence of UBI. Definitely not mutually exclusive.

Third, public policy-makers should be thinking about job guarantee schemes that would complement the normal labor market. Guaranteeing paid activity in this way would kick in when traditional jobs are lost; it would keep people active and able to use their skills. If governments acted as an ‘employer of last resort’ this would avert scarring effects and could actively promote up-skilling if, as it should be, requalification/retraining were a core element of the guaranteed activity.

As such a scheme would in effect decouple the payment for an activity from its content it creates an additional public policy tool to incentivize socially beneficial activities. A job guarantee could, for instance, be effectively used to upgrade the health and care sectors, where on current demographic trends more human labor is required in the future. It could also be used to fund sports and other cultural activities locally and thus strengthen social cohesion in communities.

Such a job guarantee system would be managed through a variety of different intermediaries and governance institutions. It is not about introducing a planned economy. The idea is premised on the assumption that even if traditional jobs disappear or there are times of transitional unemployment we as human beings will not run out of ideas as to what kind of socially beneficial activity we could actively engage in.

The fourth cornerstone then addresses how to finance such a scheme. It is surely worthwhile to rethink taxation, including how the tax base can be broadened, but in the end this might be either insufficient, distortionary or both. If we really end up in a world in which most of the work is done by robots the fundamental question is: who owns the robots?
Sounds like the workhouse v2.0 to me...no thanks. Id rather get money for not working than getting money for some bullshit-job forced full-employment program
This leads us to the fifth and final point: democratizing capital ownership. If the robot-owners are the winners in this brave new digital world then as many people as possible should have ownership stakes. This can work at both the individual and the macro level. At company level, models such as the ‘workers share’ could spread ownership amongst employees so workers individually become less reliant on income from wages. At the macro level special purpose financial vehicles could be created to re-socialize capital returns. These could be sovereign investment funds that would work along the lines of university endowments or sovereign wealth funds and create new public revenue streams that could then be used to help fund the job guarantee.
AKA Blair's Stakeholder society...a scourge. Nationalise industry by all means, but this whole make everyone a shareholder thing is already a creeping disaster, which will hopefully be buried after the next imminent crash once we all lose our pensions.
 
All fair criticisms ska. The article is unclear on the details and possible outcomes as you say.

The best argument for basic income I've seen is Matt Bruenig's I posted months back. The 1% receive massive unearned rentier income so why shouldn't everyone.

Even so I'm wary of silver bullets and still have my doubts though.

Edit to add - It's going to be very interesting what the political classes response will be to automation of well paying middle class jobs.
 
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The suggestion is that it will allow - no, encourage - capital to create shit jobs with low pay with state subsidy (effectively a tax on the w/c) and growth in low-paying jobs acts a a drag anchor on wages generally. Not that it would support people already working for low wages.
But it would precisely support those on low wages, that's exactly the point of it. You get basic income on top of everything else that you earn.

The subsidy is not the employer, it is to the recipient.
 
It's utterly misleading and a completely empty article - like every article in the Indie these days.

Pure liberal clickbait
 
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