Avoiding meat and dairy is ‘single biggest way’ to reduce your impact on Earth

[Funky_monks]

Climate change: Human activity makes forests emit carbon

But then:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.1354-1013.2002.00486.x

And also, the price of gas is causing fertiliser plants to stop producing, so we've never been in more need of manure................

 

[Hollis]

The rest includes everything from pescatarians (a baffling position, unless for dietary reasons) to ‘don’t know’.

Thread: "In defence of pescatarians"... * makes mental note for when bored *

 

[Hollis]

Dunno if this is old hat..

Is dairy or meat worse for environment?

"Eating mozzarella, feta, brie, cottage, or camembert may help reduce your carbon footprint."

Which reminds me only 6 weeks or so to the annual Christmas cheese amnesty..

 

[platinumsage]

Looks like the slaughter of male calves/chicks etc will soon be a thing of the past:

Gene edited sex selection may spare animal suffering

A gene editing technique may prevent the slaughter of animals not needed by the livestock industry.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[editor]

Looks like the slaughter of male calves/chicks etc will soon be a thing of the past:

Gene edited sex selection may spare animal suffering

A gene editing technique may prevent the slaughter of animals not needed by the livestock industry.

www.bbc.co.uk

Won't rid it of its inherent cruelty though.

 

[Funky_monks]

Looks like the slaughter of male calves/chicks etc will soon be a thing of the past:

Gene edited sex selection may spare animal suffering

A gene editing technique may prevent the slaughter of animals not needed by the livestock industry.

www.bbc.co.uk

It already is with calves, sexed semen has been around for a while.

Obviously male calves not a problem with beef, it's only dairy replacements that it was ever an issue with, waitrose had schemes for them too - I used to know someone who finished black and white steers.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

It's not even as if a significant reduction in animal agriculture necessarily has to be bad news for farmers as a whole. There are going to be other ways of generating income from land - payments for environment public goods, tree planting, bioenergy crops, potentially the new biodiversity net gain payments - and although vegans might want it, we're hardly likely to see the animal agriculture sector disappear altogether.

A fast growing segment of farm income isn't agriculture related, but it might help reduce carbon emissions. A lot of farmers have been leasing land for windmills. I know someone who gets some of his income from leasing land for wind energy and he says that he gets more income from that than from farming.

 

[kabbes]

A fast growing segment of farm income isn't agriculture related, but it might help reduce carbon emissions. A lot of farmers have been leasing land for windmills. I know someone who gets some of his income from leasing land for wind energy and he says that he gets more income from that than from farming.

Windmills or wind turbines?

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Windmills or wind turbines?

The big turbines.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

About it, maybe.

There are these quite popular things called "muck for straw deals" that arable farmers enter into - guess what they involve?
I'm in Herefordshire and chicken muck is the preferred fert for the broccoli, spud and top fruit growers.

In the US, a large percentage of city sewage is turned into fertilizer. Usually, this is processed in some way. One city composts it and then forms it into pellets that are sold on for use as fertilizer. The Japanese used to have an entire industry around collecting "night soil" and transporting it for use on farms.

 

[Funky_monks]

In the US, a large percentage of city sewage is turned into fertilizer. Usually, this is processed in some way. One city composts it and then forms it into pellets that are sold on for use as fertilizer. The Japanese used to have an entire industry around collecting "night soil" and transporting it for use on farms.

We use human slurry here too, but its not a complete fertiliser.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

We use human slurry here too, but its not a complete fertiliser.

Its not, but no one uses it alone. Combine it with urine runoff, and granite dust, and it significantly raised the NPK values. In truth, there's all kinds of things to use for fertilizer and if there's going to be a shortage of chemical fertilizers, I'm sure the farmers are creative enough to find workarounds, like their ancestors. There will be some who are so dependent on the ag chemical company's application handbook for information on how to farm, that they won't make the transition, but for the most part, these are smart and creative people.

 

[Funky_monks]

Its not, but no one uses it alone. Combine it with urine runoff, and granite dust, and it significantly raised the NPK values. In truth, there's all kinds of things to use for fertilizer and if there's going to be a shortage of chemical fertilizers, I'm sure the farmers are creative enough to find workarounds, like their ancestors. There will be some who are so dependent on the ag chemical company's application handbook for information on how to farm, that they won't make the transition, but for the most part, these are smart and creative people.

Their ancestors used manure.

 

[campanula]

Isn't Milorganite human based, Yuwipi Woman ? I don't broadcast it around, but I am not even slightly averse to using 'humanure' (I have a composting toilet) and have always peed on my compost. Nonetheless, when a herbicide issue limited my use of horse manure, I noticed my crop yield diminished almost overnight. Granular fertilisers are no substitute for a decent, thoroughly composted humus based soil addition. It's about soil structure as well as just NPK, and without my twice yearly mulch, my potatoes were rubbish.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Their ancestors used manure.

Not always. It was a poor man's fertilizer. What farmers wanted was bat guano. It wouldn't be viable now because of environmental destruction by humans, either from bad mining practices or the fact that we've run a large number of bat species into extinction.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Isn't Milorganite human based, Yuwipi Woman ? I don't broadcast it around, but I am not even slightly averse to using 'humanure' (I have a composting toilet) and have always peed on my compost. Nonetheless, when a herbicide issue limited my use of horse manure, I noticed my crop yield diminished almost overnight. Granular fertilisers are no substitute for a decent, thoroughly composted humus based soil addition. It's about soil structure as well as just NPK, and without my twice yearly mulch, my potatoes were rubbish.

Yes, its domestic sludge that's been processed and formed into pellet for easier application.

I'm not an advocate for chemical fertilizers and I don't know where you got the idea that I was. In the near future chemical fertilizers are going to be in short supply due to supply chain issues. In the long run we're going to see less use of them because of its carbon profile. I've seen land ruined by applying chemicals year after year and growing the same crop year after year--usually corn. You just can't do that without damaging the soil structure. It needs the addition of organic matter to feed its biome and improve its water retention. In my garden, I have not tilled or applied chemical fertilizers in years. You also get fewer insect problems when the soil is healthy. I've put on layers of yard waste, newspapers (soy ink only), coffee grounds, granite dust, composted cotton, straw, kitchen compost, etc. I'd use Milorganite if they sold it around here.* Basically, I've used anything I can get my hands on. My soil here started out as something without earthworms you couldn't get a shovel through, to something with lots of worms you can crumble in your hands, to see and feel the organic matter in every stage of decomposition.

And yes, potatoes have better yield and taste better when grown in a healthy soil, with lots of organic matter.

<edited to add>
* I checked and they sell it a hardware store that I don't usually use so I'll be buying some this spring.

 

[NoXion]

Yes, its domestic sludge that's been processed and formed into pellet for easier application.

I'm not an advocate for chemical fertilizers and I don't know where you got the idea that I was. In the near future chemical fertilizers are going to be in short supply due to supply chain issues. In the long run we're going to see less use of them because of its carbon profile. I've seen land ruined by applying chemicals year after year and growing the same crop year after year--usually corn.

The bit in bold is where the real damage is being done. Plenty of farmers make regular use of chemical fertilisers while also practising crop rotation, and they continue to see acceptable yields, other circumstances permitting.

You'd get the same problems if you went "organic" but still insisted on monoculture.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

The bit in bold is where the real damage is being done. Plenty of farmers make regular use of chemical fertilisers while also practising crop rotation, and they continue to see acceptable yields, other circumstances permitting.

You'd get the same problems if you went "organic" but still insisted on monoculture.

Yep. Corn is especially greedy for water and soil nutrients. If you grow corn in the same plot year after year the soil erodes, and eventually your crop yields erode as well.

 

[Funky_monks]

Yep. Corn is especially greedy for water and soil nutrients. If you grow corn in the same plot year after year the soil erodes, and eventually your crop yields erode as well.

That has more to do with tillage and weather at harvest than anything else though, surely.

 

[campanula]

O no, Yuwipi Woman - I think we are on the same page here. I never assumed for a minute, that you were a chemical advocate (I am a bit worried that my post has been misconstrued...but being such a rambling waffler, it isn't really surprising). But anyway, I prioritise 'growing' soil over all other activities, since my allotment soil is sandy, stony rubbish (but great for most of the flowers I love), and my garden soil is nonexistent. So yep, I use pretty much anything carbon-based...which means everything from feather pillows to straw from my neighbours chicken coop, including green manures. Rotation has always been fundamental (my neighbouring farmer still uses the old Norfolk cropping system.

Norfolk four-course system | Crop Rotation, Manuring & Leys

Norfolk four-course system, method of agricultural organization established in Norfolk county, England, and in several other counties before the end of the 17th century; it was characterized by an emphasis on fodder crops and by the absence of a fallow year, which had characterized earlier methods.

www.britannica.com

However, I have found that using 'no-dig' on my allotment, the advantages of friable, healthy soil outweigh the potential losses due to build-up of nematodes and the like (which definitely affect the yield and condition of my crops)...and consider crop rotation goes hand-in-hand with traditional ploughing. Over the last few years, I have moved over to no-dig and now have permanent beds for tomatoes, beans, curcubits and even potatoes but it is still too soon to really evaluate all the pros and cons.
I wouldn't call myself an organic grower though.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

That has more to do with tillage and weather at harvest than anything else though, surely.

You need to explain this premise further. Farming without chemical inputs is a complicated topic that needs attention to a broad range of factors.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

However, I have found that using 'no-dig' on my allotment, the advantages of friable, healthy soil outweigh the potential losses due to build-up of nematodes and the like (which definitely affect the yield and condition of my crops)...and consider crop rotation goes hand-in-hand with traditional ploughing. Over the last few years, I have moved over to no-dig and now have permanent beds for tomatoes, beans, curcubits and even potatoes but it is still too soon to really evaluate all the pros and cons.
I wouldn't call myself an organic grower though.

Thanks for the link. My main priority is always building and maintaining the soil. Once you've taken care of that, it prevents a lot of other problems. I've seen some research that suggests that changing to low-till methods of farming would reduce greenhouse gases by 30%. Over-tilling also disturbs the soil biome, soil structure, water retention, and resiliency.

Even the USDA is recommending no till:

Park Your Plow: 5 Tips for the No-Till-Curious

No-till farmers grow crops with minimal disturbance to their fields and the organisms that call them home. This builds healthier soils while reducing costs.

www.farmers.gov

 

[campanula]

I dunno about Funky_monks , but tillage (and lack of it) has been the basis of my allotment experiment for the last 5 years or so.I used to be an enthusiastic double digger, turning my soil every spring, while beans and potatoes were lovingly nested in trenches, backfilled with my lovely compost. Now, I disturb the soil as little as possible, love my weeds and leave my spade in the shed. I think my soil is home to a huge collection of interdependent microlife...which needs time to develop into a benign and balanced environment.

 

[Funky_monks]

I dunno about Funky_monks , but tillage (and lack of it) has been the basis of my allotment experiment for the last 5 years or so.I used to be an enthusiastic double digger, turning my soil every spring, while beans and potatoes were lovingly nested in trenches, backfilled with my lovely compost. Now, I disturb the soil as little as possible, love my weeds and leave my spade in the shed. I think my soil is home to a huge collection of interdependent microlife...which needs time to develop into a benign and balanced environment.

No till and min till have been around since the 70s, seems to gain traction and then falter. It does traditionally rely a lot on roundup to kill off weeds before drilling, but people have started to bring sheep/cattle into the rotation to eat them off instead, which is much better, as long as there aren't too many thistles.

There are crops which can't be produced like that (potatoes, carrots) and others that seem never to be (broccoli, most veg) but I'm not into agronomy enough to know quite why.

To add, my home veg plot is raised beds and I do plant cover and/or cover them at the end of the growing season. I still dig to incorporate compost though (I compost everything biodegradable, including bones which I run through a wood chipper to make rough bonemeal)

 

[Funky_monks]

You need to explain this premise further. Farming without chemical inputs is a complicated topic that needs attention to a broad range of factors.

Maize tends (here) to be grown on land that's a bit steeper than cereals, generally. The weather at harvest often means the kit gets boggy (if not stuck) which will cause compaction and wash-off.

 

[campanula]

O potatoes are very amenable to no-till. (on a small scale). I use a long-handled bulb-planter to make the planting holes...but have even omitted this and simply laid the spuds on the soil, adding layers of straw and whatever I manage for mulch (to keep the light out). I used to use glyphosate but now I just hoe the tops off and leave them on the surface. Nothing will survive constant decapitation. It isn't the neatest plot but my soil is (finally) beginning to get some decent heft and depth.

I agree that agriculture/horticulture is susceptible to fads and trends (as am I) ...and with Charles Dowding's current popularity, we are back in a no-dig mode, (last seen during the permaculture era).

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Maize tends (here) to be grown on land that's a bit steeper than cereals, generally. The weather at harvest often means the kit gets boggy (if not stuck) which will cause compaction and wash-off.

I'm in the US. Here corn is grown in large, flat plots with drain tile to manage water runoff. Our fall harvest is generally pretty dry and clear.

 

[Funky_monks]

O potatoes are very amenable to no-till. (on a small scale). I use a long-handled bulb-planter to make the planting holes...but have even omitted this and simply laid the spuds on the soil, adding layers of straw and whatever I manage for mulch (to keep the light out). I used to use glyphosate but now I just hoe the tops off and leave them on the surface. Nothing will survive constant decapitation. It isn't the neatest plot but my soil is (finally) beginning to get some decent heft and depth.

I agree that agriculture/horticulture is susceptible to fads and trends (as am I) ...and with Charles Dowding's current popularity, we are back in a no-dig mode, (last seen during the permaculture era).

Yes, but even if they didn't ridge up to plant them (helps drainage), you can hardly harvest them without massive soil disturbance.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Yes, but even if they didn't ridge up to plant them (helps drainage), you can hardly harvest them without massive soil disturbance.

It's not an all or nothing thing. Even soil that remains undisturbed will be acted upon by earthworms and rodents. It's a matter of balance. Some soil disturbance is beneficial, but after a point you're just breaking up soil structure and biome beyond what's needed to aerate the soil. Have you ever made buttermilk biscuits? If you mix just enough to get the ingredients into a dough, you'll get good biscuits. If you mix, and mix, you'll get hockey pucks.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

The Dutch government has unveiled a €25bn (£21bn) plan to radically reduce the number of livestock in the country as it struggles to contain an overload of animal manure.

A deal to buy out farmers to try to reduce levels of nitrogen pollution in the country had been mooted for some time, and was finally confirmed after the agreement of a new coalition government in the Netherlands earlier this week.

Netherlands announces €25bn plan to radically reduce livestock numbers

Programme to tackle pollution crisis caused by an overload of manure faces fierce opposition from farmers

www.theguardian.com