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Avoiding meat and dairy is ‘single biggest way’ to reduce your impact on Earth

Air travel is set to increase, though. Everywhere there are airport expansion programmes. If there is one thing you can do to reduce your carbon footprint substantially it is to stop flying (if you do currently). If air travel becomes seen as antisocial behaviour it becomes easier to defeat plans for increasing it.
Which was the point of this whole thread "Avoiding meat and dairy is ‘single biggest way’ to reduce your impact on Earth"
Bullshit.
Stopping flying probably is, using carbon neutral fuels probably up there somewhere, buying things transportation halfway around the globe burning tins of fossil fuels probably up there too.
 
Which was the point of this whole thread "Avoiding meat and dairy is ‘single biggest way’ to reduce your impact on Earth"
Bullshit.
Stopping flying probably is, using carbon neutral fuels probably up there somewhere, buying things transportation halfway around the globe burning tins of fossil fuels probably up there too.
For most food products transportation is a minimal part of their carbon footprint (there are exceptions of course). This belief that local is always better is wrong and the worst thing to come out of the local food movement.
 
This is my point - blanket, global solutions utterly ignore geography, which is critical when it comes to farms and farming potential.
Here is the problem: We have a population of around 68,000,000. We cannot continue to expect to feed them all a meat-heavy diet. So we need to find ways of producing food in the proportions that are sustainable and needed. If that is not possible. If we can only rear livestock, then we won’t be able to feed our population without imports. That is an issue, because like it or not, we are part of a global population and a global problem.

So, we’d better start finding solutions.
 
For most food products transportation is a minimal part of their carbon footprint (there are exceptions of course). This belief that local is always better is wrong and the worst thing to come out of the local food movement.
Yes. The issue is traipsing food around the globe just to keep adding value. Like importing stuff we can grow, or sending seafood from Oban to the Far East and then back to supermarkets in Oban just because that’s the way it’s done!
 
Yes. The issue is traipsing food around the globe just to keep adding value. Like importing stuff we can grow, or sending seafood from Oban to the Far East and then back to supermarkets in Oban just because that’s the way it’s done!
Yes - that is all pointless energy and carbon costs. And flying in veg from Peru or somewhere is clearly wrong. But importing, say, lentils or chickpeas, is not unsustainable. The idea you should only eat what can be grown within five miles doesn't make any sense and at times is simply wrong, if local produce (eg upland lamb) is not particularly sustainable or good for the local environment.
 
Yes - that is all pointless energy and carbon costs. And flying in veg from Peru or somewhere is clearly wrong. But importing, say, lentils or chickpeas, is not unsustainable. The idea you should only eat what can be grown within five miles doesn't make any sense and at times is simply wrong, if local produce (eg upland lamb) is not particularly sustainable or good for the local environment.
Indeed.
 
I live in the Pennines. I've seen multiple areas of successful tree planting and natural regeneration in the last twenty years. The soil is crap precisely becasue it has been overgrazed by sheep and is an ecological disaster zone. The answer is not to carry on with the fucking sheep.
I live on the edge of the Derbyshire dales and have worked as a botanist for the nature conservancy council in the dales. The soil there is crap because it's got nothing to cling on to yet sheep will happily graze on slopes of >45°. Good luck with planting trees or food crops on that. :eek: :D
 
I live on the edge of the Derbyshire dales and have worked as a botanist for the nature conservancy council in the dales. The soil there is crap because it's got nothing to cling on to yet sheep will happily graze on slopes of >45°. Good luck with planting trees or food crops on that. :eek: :D
I live near the Firth of Clyde. Good luck grazing sheep in the sea.
 
They definitely wouldn’t. But you were presenting a false equivalence.

How about what we do is design an agriculture and rewilding strategy that works with the Earth’s resources instead of against them. You know, like actual people on this thread are actually suggesting.
Not sure I follow you. Are you saying that sheep don't graze on uplands?

How about doing something that would really help, considering its supposed to be a climate emergency and stop farting around with stupid ideas like plastic trees coated in limewater or planting slow growing native trees. Plant something that grows a damned sight faster which will absorb CO2 faster e.g. eucalyptus but then you'll get people moaning about them not being native. :facepalm: :(
 
A British Isles that thinks it can disproportionately produce meat is unsustainable.

A British Isles that did anytghing at all will make no difference.

This thread is a troll and the OP should be banned for it, but nepotism will see that doesn't happen. Avoiding meat and dairy is not the single biggest thing, 14% of greenhouse gas is the latest thinking, air travel 2%. Being alive is still the singe biggest thing, what if all veggies went? They fart a lot, methane is a bad thing...
 
It's quite ironic how wrong the tree huggers were, trying to save the planet by defending the rights of trees, when we now know the best thing we can do is chop them down and make stuff out of them to keep carbon locked away. I wonder how long it'll be before we realise how bad a meat free diet is for the planet.
 
It's quite ironic how wrong the tree huggers were, trying to save the planet by defending the rights of trees, when we now know the best thing we can do is chop them down and make stuff out of them to keep carbon locked away. I wonder how long it'll be before we realise how bad a meat free diet is for the planet.

Satire being the next worse
 
If you're so right, not that I can see what point you're trying to make, then why not try educating us instead of being a sarky git.
I enjoy being a sarky git, but you’re probably right that it isn’t very educational.

It might be best if I take a step back and explain where I’m coming from.

First, I disagree with the thread title. I don’t think focussing on individual responsibility is the correct framing for the debate. The climate crisis is a systemic problem and can’t be fixed by individual behaviour changes alone. There has to be a change by industry.

An example I return to when discussing this is the fact that we’re always being told “*we * use too much plastic”. That households are “producing too much plastic waste”.

That is utter bollocks. Do you manufacture plastic in your kitchen? Do you wrap bananas in plastic, then unwrap them and dispose of the plastic wrapper? You don’t produce plastic waste. Food processing and retailing companies are responsible for the plastic. If there is to be a meaningful change it has to come from them.

Years ago, I went through a phase of taking off unnecessary wrapping at the checkout. I wanted the supermarket to learn that I didn’t want it. They didn’t learn. And not only that, I was making no difference to the world’s plastic waste. I was just changing the location it was binned. My protest was futile.

It’s clear that industry - business - wants us to frame the climate crisis that way. To fret about our individual responsibility. Because that way, they don’t have to change. Oil companies want us to think about our carbon footprints. Because as long as we’re doing that, we aren’t laying the blame at the door of the actual culprits. And we’re going to have very little impact.

Airlines aren’t going to notice the difference between me boycotting them and the fact that I hardly ever use them anyway. The heavy users will keep on heavily using them. Not for annual holidays. But for the daily clockwork of business.

I wrote a short piece (600 words) for the ACG website recently, which puts this case. The idea that individual behaviour changes alone are not enough. It’s here: Climate Destruction is Systemic – the Response Cannot Be “Individually Blame Ourselves”. - Anarchist Communist Group

So that’s the foundation. The climate crisis requires systemic change. Blaming ourselves individually, or its twin, shaming other individuals, is a deflection that industry will be delighted with. Because it means business as usual for them.

There are two main threads to the systemic change that’s needed. But they are interwoven. One is climate change. That requires decarbonisation of the world’s economies. The other is ecosystem repair. That requires us to rethink the way we use the planet’s resources.

There is no planet B. We cannot spread the way the “global north” consumes to the “global south”. There aren’t the resources. The north is wasteful, inefficient, and profligate. But there are resources for everyone to have plenty.

It’s been said on other threads that if we raise people in the “global south” out of poverty, they will have fewer children. That will in turn put less strain on the planet. The focus shouldn’t be “to reduce the population”, but in fact by doing something we should be doing anyway, it will influence those trends in beneficial ways.

These things are all interlinked. We can’t imagine that our economic structures on these islands are cut off from the rest of the world. There are a handful of ports through which all the world’s goods are bottlenecked. The blockage of the Suez Canal was an illustration of that.

I want a world in which I can continue to enjoy coffee and bananas. Things we can’t grow on these islands. But we do have to rethink our food security immensely so that we aren’t relying disproportionately on imports. And that will mean restructuring agriculture.

We currently subsidise farming to keep it in business. But we need to be encouraging it to produce for our needs where we are. We should produce food as if we were self sufficient. That doesn’t mean don’t import tea or oranges. But it does mean rebalance production so that were we blockaded, we’d still get the right balance of nutrition. Not because we expect blockades, but because that’s a way of rethinking what we do.

In hand with that, we need to repair the biodiversity of our natural environment. We will need to design agricultural around this rewilding, and design rewilding around agriculture. We can’t do either alone. And we need to do it in sympathy with nature. The monoculture of the forestry planting in the 60s and 70s where I grew up (and in which my Dad worked for a while, when it was in an unsustained high man-hour spurt), is an example of exactly what we don’t want to do. It blanketed the land, regardless of suitability, in one species. From loch shore to crags.

Instead we need to plan carefully where we reforest. And we need to plan carefully where we graze. (Which needs to be hugely reduced). And where we grow crops. And how we grow crops.

But the good thing is we don’t have to start inventing all this. We already have this knowledge and technology. We just need to start applying it. Not just for land use, but also for power production. It is there. Not with future technology. But with now technology. But industry has been blocking it. Dragging its feet. Diverting our attention. Deflecting blame. And government has gone along with this. Saying that industry needs to be at the table.

So, when you and others say “you can’t plant crops on mountain tops”, you’re joining in with the misdirection that comes from the industries who got us into this mess. Nobody is saying do that. We’re saying redesign for our needs and in sympathy with our environment.

And like it or not, heavy meat consumption is not in sympathy with our environment. This is not a vegan manifesto, it’s a matter of climate arithmetic.
 
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The other way of putting it is this: if human beings want to be apex predators, we need to ask “the apex of what?” and look at where the pyramid spreads out from under us.

Apex predators are always far fewer in number than the ruminants they feed on.

So we can be numerous - round 8 billion at current counts - or we can be apex predators. We can’t be both. Not with only one planet.

We could be occasional eaters of a small amount of red meat though. As nutritional science recommends.

Do we need to be virtuous ascetics? Not at all, but we can’t go on imagining in our systems planning that the constant meat rich diet of some is unconnected from the starvation of others. This isn’t about individual morality. It’s about system change.
 
The other way of putting it is this: if human beings want to be apex predators, we need to ask “the apex of what?” and look at where the pyramid spreads out from under us.

Apex predators are always far fewer in number than the ruminants they feed on.

So we can be numerous - round 8 billion at current counts - or we can be apex predators. We can’t be both. Not with only one planet.

We could be occasional eaters of a small amount of red meat though. As nutritional science recommends.

Do we need to be virtuous ascetics? Not at all, but we can’t go on imagining in our systems planning that the constant meat rich diet of some is unconnected from the starvation of others. This isn’t about individual morality. It’s about system change.
Away with your thoughtful and sensible posting. That’s not what this thread’s about at all!
 
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Pro-beef article in today's Guardian. ‘It’s not the cow, it’s the how’: why a long-time vegetarian became beef’s biggest champion

I've not read this thread so I don't know whether the arguments are old hat. The subject of the article wrote this 2014 book Defending Beef: The Case for Sustainable Meat Production : Nicolette Hahn Niman: Amazon.co.uk: Books The article implies that the book is new. It seems odd that the Guardian is focusing on it now.

The book was mentioned on urban in 2019 Milk's impact on the planet dairy, soya, rice, oat and almond compared
 
There's plenty we can do - but squabbling of the 10% ghg emissions that ag is responsible for (EU figures) rather than targeting the fossil fuel companies and industry is exactly why they employ marketing executives etc.

For a start, we could stop getting on aeroplanes to go on holiday.

For perspective:
An A320 is a small, modern and fuel efficient jet. It has a capacity of 27000 litres. A return flight from London heathrow to Ibiza is 2700nm which is basically a whole tank of aviation fuel so that 170 people can go on a holiday.

A large upland farm (say, 1300 sheep and 50 cattle) might use 2000 litres of fuel per year. That’s 13 years of fuel within one a320 return trip to Ibiza.
In those 13 years, they could produce
13,000 lambs and 390 calves. All these animals would have been fed on ground unsuitable for any arable crop.
That's without planting trees, maintaining/laying hedgerows etc.

Man whose livelihood depends on animal agriculture tries 'whataboutery' whenever animal agriculture is in the spotlight. Colour me surprised.
 
Man whose livelihood depends on animal agriculture tries 'whataboutery' whenever animal agriculture is in the spotlight. Colour me surprised.

Food production in the quantities necessary to feed humanity depends on either: animal agriculture or petrochemical fertilisers.

Its no surprise to me that you are an apologist for the latter.
 
Food production in the quantities necessary to feed humanity depends on either: animal agriculture or petrochemical fertilisers.

Its no surprise to me that you are an apologist for the latter.
One of which is proved to be destroying the planet, polluting water sources and increasing nitrous oxide levels in the atmosphere. Nitrous oxide destroys ozone. It's the most potent greenhouse gas.
But no surprise that Jeff is an apologist. He'd rather see the planet die than a bunny wabbit.
 
Food production in the quantities necessary to feed humanity depends on either: animal agriculture or petrochemical fertilisers.

Its no surprise to me that you are an apologist for the latter.

Anything to eradicate your industry is excellent afaic.
 
 
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