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Avoiding meat and dairy is ‘single biggest way’ to reduce your impact on Earth

Yes, I got that. I also think you're laying it on a bit thick. As did some of the articles. With the new metric, everything is fine and dandy as long as we stick to the status quo, but we aren't and we won't at this rate, certainly not globally. I think certainly there is some good news and I don't deny that, but:

  • Increasing methane emissions cause very substantial warming, equivalent to very large emissions of CO2, but only while those increases are occurring.

So trying to rein it in a bit still sounds like a good idea to me.
The global farmed cattle population is decreasing (mostly due to dairy cattle in developing countries being replaced by more "advanced" strains with higher yields). The FAO have figures if you look. Wild ruminant populations are by and large decreasing (habitat loss) with some exceptions - deer in the UK is one such example. So, anthropogenic methane would also decrease along with this.

Fracking causes methane emissions...................

The overemphasis on food is dangerous environmentally and exists partly because the petrochemical business is a much more coordinated and therefore better at lobbying - agriculture (like it or not) is made up of lots of SMEs who can barely agree on what day of the week it is.
This leads people like Joachim Phoenix to say that it doesn't matter that he flew to a climate change protest because he's vegan.

In the US, according to their EPA: Transport is responsible for 28.5% of all emissions, Electricity generation 28.4, industry 21.6, whereas the whole of agriculture (Crops and livestock combined) is only worth 9.4% (4.7 crops 3.9 livestock).

Read those figures and wonder why people are being told just to stop eating meat and not stop going on aeroplanes, use less electric, buy less stuff with packaging (industry), build more with wood (mitigate industry)....etc
 
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The global farmed cattle population is decreasing (mostly due to dairy cattle in developing countries being replaced by more "advanced" strains with higher yields). The FAO have figures if you look. Wild ruminant populations are by and large decreasing (habitat loss) with some exceptions - deer in the UK is one such example. So, anthropogenic methane would also decrease along with this.

Fracking causes methane emissions...................

The overemphasis on food is dangerous environmentally and exists partly because the petrochemical business is a much more coordinated and therefore better at lobbying - agriculture (like it or not) is made up of lots of SMEs who can barely agree on what day of the week it is.
This leads people like Joachim Phoenix to say that it doesn't matter that he flew to a climate change protest because he's vegan.

In the US, according to their EPA: Transport is responsible for 28.5% of all emissions, Electricity generation 28.4, industry 21.6, whereas the whole of agriculture (Crops and livestock combined) is only worth 9.4% (4.7 crops 3.9 livestock).

Read those figures and wonder why people are being told just to stop eating meat and not stop going on aeroplanes, use less electric, buy less stuff with packaging (industry), build more with wood (mitigate industry)....etc
The more 'efficient' farming strategies are frequently more stressful for the animals, with higher yields requiring more intensive methods, so that must also be balanced, though I am more than willing to accept your thoughts on both the petrochemical business and Joachim Phoenix. (To an extent. I'll come onto that.)

Also good to remember that meat is frequently transported and stored chilled, which again has an impact which is different to other forms of protein such as pulses.

I have read the figures, but I would say to you, why NOT meat? Most of us already try to avoid flying, packaging, and are careful with our buying habits, and no one seems to have quite the same emotional reaction to those things as they do when asked not to eat meat. I don't understand why. We already do the other stuff and a 'look over there!' attitude is not helpful.

Celebrity hypocrites. Okay, this annoys me. As soon as a celebrity sings the praises of good environmental habits, the press will immediately try to find something they did that was not good. This means that the message about the good environmental habit, from someone who could actually have a positive impact, is lost. And it's become absolutely routine now. 'Take that, Greta! Not so squeaky clean now, are you?!' we just can't help ourselves.
 
In the US, according to their EPA: Transport is responsible for 28.5% of all emissions, Electricity generation 28.4, industry 21.6, whereas the whole of agriculture (Crops and livestock combined) is only worth 9.4% (4.7 crops 3.9 livestock).

For a start, livestock farming requires transport and electricity and it also requires crops, so you can't neatly disaggregate those figures. Those figures also don’t take into account animal agriculture’s leading role in deforestation (in the US but even more so in South America), another major cause of climate change. But most importantly, those figures don't take potency of different emissions into account. Animal ag is one of the worst culprits for methane emissions and the worst culprit for nitrous oxide emissions. When you factor all of these things in, animal ag in the USA and elsewhere is indeed one of the worst contributors to global warming.
 
For a start, livestock farming requires transport and electricity and it also requires crops, so you can't neatly disaggregate those figures. Those figures also don’t take into account animal agriculture’s leading role in deforestation (in the US but even more so in South America), another major cause of climate change. But most importantly, those figures don't take potency of different emissions into account. Animal ag is one of the worst culprits for methane emissions and the worst culprit for nitrous oxide emissions. When you factor all of these things in, animal ag in the USA and elsewhere is indeed one of the worst contributors to global warming.
You haven't read my source on methane, have you?

You could easily have said the same of cropping: Cropping needs transport and electricity and requires fertiliser (often from animal ag)

Also, nitrous oxide comes from animal dung, so its really rather surprising that it is emitted by anything else (and yet it is). It doesn't matter if farmed animals are exploiting a food source or wild animals, they will all shit and ergo, all release No2. Agriculture looks to mitigate this by injecting slurry or use of dribble bars for spreading so more fert is delivered directly at plant root level and none is lost to the atmosphere. Given that all crops need inputs, perhaps these should be made compulsory (and certainly dung is a much more sustainable input than petrochemical fert)

Also, the emissions in ag takes into account the fuel used in ag.

The rest of it sounds like you are agreeing with my earlier statements that we need to vastly shorten the agricultural supply chain - that goes for crops and meat products.

Also, you ought to know full well by now that slash and burn agriculture is mostly to clear ground for soy, we've been over this.
 
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The more 'efficient' farming strategies are frequently more stressful for the animals, with higher yields requiring more intensive methods, so that must also be balanced, though I am more than willing to accept your thoughts on both the petrochemical business and Joachim Phoenix. (To an extent. I'll come onto that.)

Also good to remember that meat is frequently transported and stored chilled, which again has an impact which is different to other forms of protein such as pulses.

I have read the figures, but I would say to you, why NOT meat? Most of us already try to avoid flying, packaging, and are careful with our buying habits, and no one seems to have quite the same emotional reaction to those things as they do when asked not to eat meat. I don't understand why. We already do the other stuff and a 'look over there!' attitude is not helpful.

Celebrity hypocrites. Okay, this annoys me. As soon as a celebrity sings the praises of good environmental habits, the press will immediately try to find something they did that was not good. This means that the message about the good environmental habit, from someone who could actually have a positive impact, is lost. And it's become absolutely routine now. 'Take that, Greta! Not so squeaky clean now, are you?!' we just can't help ourselves.

My point is that food overall is responsible for 10% or less of overall emissions in developed countries, and if you were going to "spend" carbon on anything, keeping people fed is probably more worthwhile than a lot of the other stuff. Cropping is also responsible for emissions, so why single out meat?

My other point is that certain systems that produce meat help to sequester carbon - grazing livestock systems.

People do not avoid packaging - look in a supermarket, everything save one or two loose veg are packaged. It's bonkers. People certainly don't avoid pre-prepared foods which have loads more transport and industry involved. People do not appear to be avoiding flying either- look at the clamour for travel whenever restrictions have been eased a bit.

This is because people are sold a vastly overestimated impact of meat as a whole and think that somehow because they don't eat it, this might go some way towards mitigating taking a massive fucking plane all over the place - which is why I used Joachim as an example.

As I've said before, climate friendly diets will vary with locality - if you live in the UK, we are fucking good at growing grass, thanks to our climate, but pretty piss poor at growing milling wheat. Soya is starting to come out of some animal diets (as it should, none of the animals we farm need soy, we grew them perfectly well for thousands of years without it) - for example M&S won't allow soy in cattle feed for their dairy products (the farm at work now supplies them). Veg production here is problematic because it is often done in a way that adds to soil loss (which is the real issue, it is ultimately the soil microbes who sequester most of the carbon)

I am not saying that farming and especially not the food supply chain should change, it is an applied science and as science changes, so should it.
To me, the most sustainable diets are local ones. However, the supermarkets have made this very difficult. Local abattoirs are closing (and either way, they use central collecting points for all things which adds a huge number of miles and therefore fuel), there are numerous incidences of misleading packaging (union jacks on products imported and simply packed in the UK).
Cropping and livestock are integrated systems and rely on each other.
There are some things which could help and I consider them to be things like:
Regenerative ag (which will involve more animals on arable farms to bring fert by grazing in rotation with no transportation costs whatsoever) which may lead to some destocking of the marginal upland areas (there is an argument about cultures being removed if you do this and I hear it a lot from Welsh and Scottish hill farmers, the latter of whom seem to see it as an extension of the highland clearances, but that is a different topic).
A completely new look at pig and poultry (which provide 80% of the meat we eat anyway) - both of those creatures were originally domesticated to exist in small groups alongside humans and make use of scraps. There are some really interesting systems putting meat birds on ground after combining to eat the spilled wheat (which can run into the tons, by the way). Which, ironically used to happen post war, so nothing is new. Rather than centralising these things in numbers they should be more spread out (as it were), both have an important function in minimising waste.
Urban farming - I've read a few papers on this now and it does seem to have numerous benefits, often more efficient than mechanised horticulture (you can grow up as well as out because harvesting is done by hand), community benefits (social cohesion is mentioned in numerous studies).
Cutting down on waste - to me this is one of the biggest issues in food at the moment, and I don't think the responsibility lies with the consumer as much as we are led to believe, supermarkets should be penalised for food waste and that which is wasted and not suitable for feed (foot and mouth put paid to a lot of food recycling through animals - it is now illegal to feed any livestock anything which has been through a kitchen) . There are promising projects using food waste to grow soldier fly larvae (which are massively efficient) as a protein source (for inclusion in feed) which would make loads of sense for, say poultry which naturally eat a lot of invertebrates anyway if you let them.
 
My point is that food overall is responsible for 10% or less of overall emissions in developed countries, and if you were going to "spend" carbon on anything, keeping people fed is probably more worthwhile than a lot of the other stuff. Cropping is also responsible for emissions, so why single out meat?

My other point is that certain systems that produce meat help to sequester carbon - grazing livestock systems.

People do not avoid packaging - look in a supermarket, everything save one or two loose veg are packaged. It's bonkers. People certainly don't avoid pre-prepared foods which have loads more transport and industry involved. People do not appear to be avoiding flying either- look at the clamour for travel whenever restrictions have been eased a bit.

This is because people are sold a vastly overestimated impact of meat as a whole and think that somehow because they don't eat it, this might go some way towards mitigating taking a massive fucking plane all over the place - which is why I used Joachim as an example.

As I've said before, climate friendly diets will vary with locality - if you live in the UK, we are fucking good at growing grass, thanks to our climate, but pretty piss poor at growing milling wheat. Soya is starting to come out of some animal diets (as it should, none of the animals we farm need soy, we grew them perfectly well for thousands of years without it) - for example M&S won't allow soy in cattle feed for their dairy products (the farm at work now supplies them). Veg production here is problematic because it is often done in a way that adds to soil loss (which is the real issue, it is ultimately the soil microbes who sequester most of the carbon)

I am not saying that farming and especially not the food supply chain should change, it is an applied science and as science changes, so should it.
To me, the most sustainable diets are local ones. However, the supermarkets have made this very difficult. Local abattoirs are closing (and either way, they use central collecting points for all things which adds a huge number of miles and therefore fuel), there are numerous incidences of misleading packaging (union jacks on products imported and simply packed in the UK).
Cropping and livestock are integrated systems and rely on each other.
There are some things which could help and I consider them to be things like:
Regenerative ag (which will involve more animals on arable farms to bring fert by grazing in rotation with no transportation costs whatsoever) which may lead to some destocking of the marginal upland areas (there is an argument about cultures being removed if you do this and I hear it a lot from Welsh and Scottish hill farmers, the latter of whom seem to see it as an extension of the highland clearances, but that is a different topic).
A completely new look at pig and poultry (which provide 80% of the meat we eat anyway) - both of those creatures were originally domesticated to exist in small groups alongside humans and make use of scraps. There are some really interesting systems putting meat birds on ground after combining to eat the spilled wheat (which can run into the tons, by the way). Which, ironically used to happen post war, so nothing is new. Rather than centralising these things in numbers they should be more spread out (as it were), both have an important function in minimising waste.
Urban farming - I've read a few papers on this now and it does seem to have numerous benefits, often more efficient than mechanised horticulture (you can grow up as well as out because harvesting is done by hand), community benefits (social cohesion is mentioned in numerous studies).
Cutting down on waste - to me this is one of the biggest issues in food at the moment, and I don't think the responsibility lies with the consumer as much as we are led to believe, supermarkets should be penalised for food waste and that which is wasted and not suitable for feed (foot and mouth put paid to a lot of food recycling through animals - it is now illegal to feed any livestock anything which has been through a kitchen) . There are promising projects using food waste to grow soldier fly larvae (which are massively efficient) as a protein source (for inclusion in feed) which would make loads of sense for, say poultry which naturally eat a lot of invertebrates anyway if you let them.
Excellent post.
 
My point is that food overall is responsible for 10% or less of overall emissions in developed countries, and if you were going to "spend" carbon on anything, keeping people fed is probably more worthwhile than a lot of the other stuff. Cropping is also responsible for emissions, so why single out meat?

My other point is that certain systems that produce meat help to sequester carbon - grazing livestock systems.

People do not avoid packaging - look in a supermarket, everything save one or two loose veg are packaged. It's bonkers. People certainly don't avoid pre-prepared foods which have loads more transport and industry involved. People do not appear to be avoiding flying either- look at the clamour for travel whenever restrictions have been eased a bit.

This is because people are sold a vastly overestimated impact of meat as a whole and think that somehow because they don't eat it, this might go some way towards mitigating taking a massive fucking plane all over the place - which is why I used Joachim as an example.

As I've said before, climate friendly diets will vary with locality - if you live in the UK, we are fucking good at growing grass, thanks to our climate, but pretty piss poor at growing milling wheat. Soya is starting to come out of some animal diets (as it should, none of the animals we farm need soy, we grew them perfectly well for thousands of years without it) - for example M&S won't allow soy in cattle feed for their dairy products (the farm at work now supplies them). Veg production here is problematic because it is often done in a way that adds to soil loss (which is the real issue, it is ultimately the soil microbes who sequester most of the carbon)

I am not saying that farming and especially not the food supply chain should change, it is an applied science and as science changes, so should it.
To me, the most sustainable diets are local ones. However, the supermarkets have made this very difficult. Local abattoirs are closing (and either way, they use central collecting points for all things which adds a huge number of miles and therefore fuel), there are numerous incidences of misleading packaging (union jacks on products imported and simply packed in the UK).
Cropping and livestock are integrated systems and rely on each other.
There are some things which could help and I consider them to be things like:
Regenerative ag (which will involve more animals on arable farms to bring fert by grazing in rotation with no transportation costs whatsoever) which may lead to some destocking of the marginal upland areas (there is an argument about cultures being removed if you do this and I hear it a lot from Welsh and Scottish hill farmers, the latter of whom seem to see it as an extension of the highland clearances, but that is a different topic).
A completely new look at pig and poultry (which provide 80% of the meat we eat anyway) - both of those creatures were originally domesticated to exist in small groups alongside humans and make use of scraps. There are some really interesting systems putting meat birds on ground after combining to eat the spilled wheat (which can run into the tons, by the way). Which, ironically used to happen post war, so nothing is new. Rather than centralising these things in numbers they should be more spread out (as it were), both have an important function in minimising waste.
Urban farming - I've read a few papers on this now and it does seem to have numerous benefits, often more efficient than mechanised horticulture (you can grow up as well as out because harvesting is done by hand), community benefits (social cohesion is mentioned in numerous studies).
Cutting down on waste - to me this is one of the biggest issues in food at the moment, and I don't think the responsibility lies with the consumer as much as we are led to believe, supermarkets should be penalised for food waste and that which is wasted and not suitable for feed (foot and mouth put paid to a lot of food recycling through animals - it is now illegal to feed any livestock anything which has been through a kitchen) . There are promising projects using food waste to grow soldier fly larvae (which are massively efficient) as a protein source (for inclusion in feed) which would make loads of sense for, say poultry which naturally eat a lot of invertebrates anyway if you let them.
Get away with your well considered, sensible posts. That’s not what this thread’s for at all!
 
You haven't read my source on methane, have you?

You could easily have said the same of cropping: Cropping needs transport and electricity and requires fertiliser (often from animal ag)

Also, nitrous oxide comes from animal dung, so its really rather surprising that it is emitted by anything else (and yet it is). It doesn't matter if farmed animals are exploiting a food source or wild animals, they will all shit and ergo, all release No2. Agriculture looks to mitigate this by injecting slurry or use of dribble bars for spreading so more fert is delivered directly at plant root level and none is lost to the atmosphere. Given that all crops need inputs, perhaps these should be made compulsory (and certainly dung is a much more sustainable input than petrochemical fert)

Also, the emissions in ag takes into account the fuel used in ag.

The rest of it sounds like you are agreeing with my earlier statements that we need to vastly shorten the agricultural supply chain - that goes for crops and meat products.

Also, you ought to know full well by now that slash and burn agriculture is mostly to clear ground for soy, we've been over this.

No, I haven't read your methane article. I have however read countless reports that show that the 'enteric fermentation' of 'livestock' is the biggest cause of methane emissions by industry, ditto nitrous oxide. Do you seriously contend that vastly reducing the number of livestock - especially ruminants - would be one of the best things we could do to reduce greenhouse gas emissions?

I do remember the ignorant garbage you were spouting about soy. It was pointed out to you that most soy production is for livestock feed. You then bizarrely claimed that the soy cake used to feed livestock was a byproduct of soy oil production for humans even though the former is vastly more profitable than the latter and undeniably the main driving force behind soy production.
 
No, I haven't read your methane article. I have however read countless reports that show that the 'enteric fermentation' of 'livestock' is the biggest cause of methane emissions by industry, ditto nitrous oxide. Do you seriously contend that vastly reducing the number of livestock - especially ruminants - would be one of the best things we could do to reduce greenhouse gas emissions?

Let’s ramp up the deer culls too then. Far too many wild deer in this country, and converting wild methane-producers into food has to be one of the greenest ways to feed people.
 
I do remember the ignorant garbage you were spouting about soy. It was pointed out to you that most soy production is for livestock feed. You then bizarrely claimed that the soy cake used to feed livestock was a byproduct of soy oil production for humans even though the former is vastly more profitable than the latter and undeniably the main driving force behind soy production.
You're beyond clueless.
 
Let’s ramp up the deer culls too then. Far too many wild deer in this country, and converting wild methane-producers into food has to be one of the greenest ways to feed people.
Awesome point, but I think you'll find there's an awful lot more cattle than deer filling the atmosphere with methane in the UK.




Chart compares methane emissions sources.


livescience.com/52680-the-role-of-animal-farts-in-global-warming-infographic.html
 
No, I haven't read your methane article. I have however read countless reports that show that the 'enteric fermentation' of 'livestock' is the biggest cause of methane emissions by industry, ditto nitrous oxide. Do you seriously contend that vastly reducing the number of livestock - especially ruminants - would be one of the best things we could do to reduce greenhouse gas emissions?

I do remember the ignorant garbage you were spouting about soy. It was pointed out to you that most soy production is for livestock feed. You then bizarrely claimed that the soy cake used to feed livestock was a byproduct of soy oil production for humans even though the former is vastly more profitable than the latter and undeniably the main driving force behind soy production.

"I haven't read your Oxford university research on enteric methane and instead, here's my opinion based on my feelings"

Excellent, well done.

The fact still remains that oilseed soy would not be produced were it not for the oil and not the byproduct, again whether you like it or not.
The fact also remains that no farmed livestock need soy anyway and could just as easily be produced without it, were it not so cheap because it is otherwise useless.

Edited to add oilseed rape also produces high protein cake for feed inclusion. Will you stop eating veg oil because of it? Do you think it is mostly produced for the spent cake?
 
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Awesome point, but I think you'll find there's an awful lot more cattle than deer filling the atmosphere with methane in the UK.




Chart compares methane emissions sources.


livescience.com/52680-the-role-of-animal-farts-in-global-warming-infographic.html

Is this a slow handicap moment?
I've just posted an Oxford source which explains why anthropogenic methane is less of an issue than other sources, some data from an Irish study which shows estimates of methane from cattle could be too high by a third and told you that farmed ruminants livestock units are decreasing globally, yet here you are posting non peer reviewed infographics.

"People are tired of experts" - Michael Gove.
Good to see that feeling is alive and well on here.
 
Is this a slow handicap moment?
I've just posted an Oxford source which explains why anthropogenic methane is less of an issue than other sources, some data from an Irish study which shows estimates of methane from cattle could be too high by a third and told you that farmed ruminants livestock units are decreasing globally, yet here you are posting non peer reviewed infographics.

"People are tired of experts" - Michael Gove.
Good to see that feeling is alive and well on here.
You've selected ONE source that supports your argument while ignoring all the other studies that do not. Funny that.

People need to eat less meat. They don't need your tired excuses, wriggles and obfuscation.
 
Awesome point, but I think you'll find there's an awful lot more cattle than deer filling the atmosphere with methane in the UK.




Chart compares methane emissions sources.


livescience.com/52680-the-role-of-animal-farts-in-global-warming-infographic.html
That first pie chart doesn't separate cows from deer they are all lumped together under "enteric fermentation".

Second pie chart shows rice production produces more methane than cows so it would have a bigger effect to stop eating rice than meat. Oops.
 
You've selected ONE source that supports your argument while ignoring all the other studies that do not. Funny that.

People need to eat less meat. They don't need your tired excuses, wriggles and obfuscation.
You've selected a fuckload of lay press articled based on the findings of a 2016 study, you've basically just found as many incidences as you can of fits extrapolated findings appearing in the press and replicated them.

that does not = a loads of studies.
 
The fact of the matter is; the question "how can I reduce my carbon footprint through my dietary choices" is intimately linked to a) where you are, b) where your food has come from and c) how it was produced.



One of the things that the pandemic has laid bare is the inefficiencies of global agrifood supply chains. Food should ideally not go far from where it is produced (transport and manufacturing is a much bigger emitter of GHG than ag - in the EU ag is responsible for 10% emissions, and again, I'm not sure that really is "local" enough to be meaningful). The only way I can see this happening is with the collapse of the supermarkets market share of food sales. I can't see that happening.
This is not true. Land use and agriculture produce the vast majority of greenhouse gases. Transport and manufacturing are quite small proportions, as this graph shows.

Environmental-impact-of-food-by-life-cycle-stage.png
 
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