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Avoiding meat and dairy is ‘single biggest way’ to reduce your impact on Earth

Yeh but even homer nods
It's not just the number of cod in the Baltic, that was just one example of how chemical fertilisers are destroying the planet. If you haven't seen Breaking Boundaries it's worth watching and quite thought provoking when you actually get to see the damage we're doing.
 
It's not just the number of cod in the Baltic, that was just one example of how chemical fertilisers are destroying the planet. If you haven't seen Breaking Boundaries it's worth watching and quite thought provoking when you actually get to see the damage we're doing.
I prefer keeping an eye on the Arctic methane, the melting permafrost, and the zombie fires of siberia. That's quite enough damage for anyone to watch. The pollution of waterways by fertilisers or flea poison Pet flea treatments poisoning rivers across England, scientists find I'll leave to other people
 
I dont think killing/eating animals is cruel though. Not on an existential level. It's part of life.

The current industry under capitalism is cruel. but thats true for everything, from mobile phones to plastics to oils to quinoao to duvets. I dont believe in liberal boycotts. And as much as it enrages the vegans in this thread - eating regular amounts of meat is a tried and tested diet.
If a living thing has to have it's life ended for your tastebuds when it doesn't have to die, then that is cruel fact
How is choosing not to have animals slaughtered for your plate a "liberal boycott" ffs? I'm probably way less of a liberal than you for starters
So what if it's tried and tested, so are other diets/choices
 
If a living thing has to have it's life ended for your tastebuds when it doesn't have to die, then that is cruel fact
How is choosing not to have animals slaughtered for your plate a "liberal boycott" ffs? I'm probably way less of a liberal than you for starters
So what if it's tried and tested, so are other diets/choices

Youve got your view ive got mine. 90% of the world does eat meat/fish, not that that means anything.

Im not judging anyone for avoiding meat, certainly not, and I think there's lots of environmental positives to vegetarianism/veganism, but I also dont see it objectively from only that perspective. I just said moderate meat-eating is not a huge issue for me personally. Even the worst animal cruelty doesnt bother me that much, not compared to stuff happening to people. Animals are just animals.

Maybe the liberal boycott was a bit trolly so I'll retract that.
 
Has anybody watched Breaking Boundaries? It's worth a look. It seems the likelihood of us all going vegan/vegetarian is approximately zero, unless we want to accelerate the planet's death spiral. Breaking Boundaries discusses the tipping points that are going to fuck the planet, and the one we've already reached and breached is chemical fertilisers. They've poisoned our waters. It's so bad that the Baltic Sea, which used to be full of cod, now contains no cod, and it's due to runoff from cemical fertilisers poisoning the water. So it would appear that the best way to save the planet is to cut down on vegetables, don't bin the ones we buy because there a bit old, and instead of chemical fertilisers, use the natural fertilisers from the animals we eat, because unless we cut back on chemical fertilisers, we're doomed.
I'm no pro, but I presume that the farming industry uses those chemicals to maximise profits. And are those crops that are treated most often used for cattle feed? I don't know, hence my asking. If there was less of a drive to feed animals to kill and eat them, less land would be required for crops. My thought is that there would be less pressure to rinse everything out of the land, considering how well documented it is that feeding animals to eat as food requires more land. I'm probably not explaining myself very well, but with a cessation of growing so much crop feed, the land can be used with a view to accept a level of wastage currently unacceptable. With the usual subsidies, remaining land can be used for wildflower/pollinator promotion. Targeted grazing would improve biodiversity. I think we're close to big changes.
 
Youve got your view ive got mine. 90% of the world does eat meat/fish, not that that means anything.

Im not judging anyone for avoiding meat, certainly not, and I think there's lots of environmental positives to vegetarianism/veganism, but I also dont see it objectively from only that perspective. I just said moderate meat-eating is not a huge issue for me personally. Even the worst animal cruelty doesnt bother me that much, not compared to stuff happening to people. Animals are just animals.

Maybe the liberal boycott was a bit trolly so I'll retract that.

If a large percentage for something doesn't mean anything, why trot it out?
Keep justifying your choices to yourself
 
Eating arsenic is a tried and tested diet. But I don't think I'd advocate it. You don't need to eat meat in the way eg a lion needs to eat a wildebeest - you choose cruelty when alternatives exist

I dont see your point. I mean actually "in the wild" humans do need to eat animal products at some point to be healthy. And obviously did exactly that up until the rise of agriculture 12k years ago... but thats obvs not the current situation.
If a large percentage for something doesn't mean anything, why trot it out?
Keep justifying your choices to yourself

Ok then keep fighting the good fight.
 
Pasture is also pretty good at sequestering carbon.
Much better than, say trees. Anthropogenic methane is part of a natural cycle.

Here for pasture

Here for trees
I remember reading stuff along these lines in New Scientist nearly twenty years ago. Where your planting and as we've seen elsewhere what trees you're planting makes a massive difference. A one size fits all strategy surprise surprise is unlikely to have the kind of impact needed .
 
I'm no pro, but I presume that the farming industry uses those chemicals to maximise profits. And are those crops that are treated most often used for cattle feed? I don't know, hence my asking. If there was less of a drive to feed animals to kill and eat them, less land would be required for crops. My thought is that there would be less pressure to rinse everything out of the land, considering how well documented it is that feeding animals to eat as food requires more land. I'm probably not explaining myself very well, but with a cessation of growing so much crop feed, the land can be used with a view to accept a level of wastage currently unacceptable. With the usual subsidies, remaining land can be used for wildflower/pollinator promotion. Targeted grazing would improve biodiversity. I think we're close to big changes.
No, the food is grown for humans. The waste is fed to animals. The nonsense that this food is grown to feed animals is just that, nonsense. It wouldn't and couldn't be economically viable to grow crops specifically to feed animals. 86% of livestock feed cannot be eaten by humans. It consists of parts of the plant that humans can't digest.
 
My cruelty yardstick is generally a pack of wolves. If a deer/sheep etc had a better demise than being hunted by a pack of those voracious beasts, then I'm good to eat it.
 
So you can't, for example, start to empathise with an intelligent, social animal, one that in nature would be roaming around, being stuck in a small cage for all of its life?

Oh jesus here we go. Im not treading on your guinea pig Johnny.

It's not that I can't empathise on some level or that I dont care at all... of course I care about the shit things done to animals. Especially when theyre done out of greed or are unnecessary. But no i dont lose any sleep over force fed geese or baby pigs being killed, cowns being milked a lot, castration of bulls or whatever else happens to even organically reared relatively well-treated animals.

It's a total logical falacy to say "in nature they would be doing xyz" (i did say that earlier about humans tbf, so shoot me) because 90% of animals we interact with are a product of 130k years interacting with human beings. nature is the current setting. there are 26 billion chickens in the world ffs :D It's shit theyre stuck in cages etc and im against that and it does bother me... sure. But not much compared to 1 billion people without food. Sorry chicken and cow.
 
This is an argument against intensive farming, not an argument against meat-eating.

I was responding to what I quoted from Riklet. I'm not totally against meat eating - I still eat meat/fish a couple of times a week, but do have a think around what I'm having with regards to cruelty and environmental impact.
 
No, the food is grown for humans. The waste is fed to animals. The nonsense that this food is grown to feed animals is just that, nonsense. It wouldn't and couldn't be economically viable to grow crops specifically to feed animals. 86% of livestock feed cannot be eaten by humans. It consists of parts of the plant that humans can't digest.
I'm missing something here. Crop is routinely grown for animal feed. It's part of why the Amazon is being fucked over (Madagascar and other places too obviously). In the UK too we see crop grown for animal feed, even if as simple as haylage. And we know that it takes a hell of a lot more crop to feed an animal and eat it than it does just to feed humans grain or veg. Ergo less land required if not feeding animals to feed humans, even with a natural amount of wastage as a result of ditching the most harmful pesticides, biocides, fertilisers, etc. I didn't think that was even in dispute.
 
No, the food is grown for humans. The waste is fed to animals. The nonsense that this food is grown to feed animals is just that, nonsense. It wouldn't and couldn't be economically viable to grow crops specifically to feed animals. 86% of livestock feed cannot be eaten by humans. It consists of parts of the plant that humans can't digest.
Not sure if you're just trolling, but OK, plenty of crops are grown specifically as livestock feed.
 
I was responding to what I quoted from Riklet. I'm not totally against meat eating - I still eat meat/fish a couple of times a week, but do have a think around what I'm having with regards to cruelty and environmental impact.

You'd be cutting that fish weekly out and cracking on with the chicken if you were weighing up all the environmental factors.

The damage being done via fishing is enormous. this is the latest area where humans are fucking up the planet/"natural ecosystem".

I don't think it demeans us as humans to kill or hurt animals, I think it demeans us to jepordise their existence.
 
No, the food is grown for humans. The waste is fed to animals. The nonsense that this food is grown to feed animals is just that, nonsense. It wouldn't and couldn't be economically viable to grow crops specifically to feed animals. 86% of livestock feed cannot be eaten by humans. It consists of parts of the plant that humans can't digest.
Pity that undigestable food is being wasted on animals and mixed with all those harmful chemicals inside the animals instead of being used to help solve the chemical fertiliser issue.
You used to be able to get sterilised shit from sewage works. You should be able to get loads of shit from humans.
There was a documentary on the BBC, an Horizon possibly, about all the wonderful things sewage works can do with it now. They can store it for long periods removing pathogens and making it ideal for growing.
 
There was a documentary on the BBC, an Horizon possibly, about all the wonderful things sewage works can do with it now. They can store it for long periods removing pathogens and making it ideal for growing.
No need to store it for long periods, it used to be heat treated. You could use the methane given off heat it.
 
I'm missing something here. Crop is routinely grown for animal feed. It's part if why the Amazon is being fucked over. In the UK too we see crop grown for animal feed, even if as simple as haylage. And we know that it takes a hell of a lot more crop to feed an animal and eat it than it does just to feed humans. Ergo less land required, even with a natural amount of wastage as a result of ditching the most harmful pesticides, biocides, fertilisers, etc. I didn't think that was even in dispute.
Which crops are being grown purely as animal feed?
We can't eat grass. Cattle can. We also can't continue pumping synthetic fertilisers into the land and the water at the rate we are doing, because its killing the planet. Pasture fed beef, by its very nature, uses significantly less chemical fertiliser than vegetables do.

Pity that undigestable food is being wasted on animals and mixed with all those harmful chemicals inside the animals instead of being used to help solve the chemical fertiliser issue.
Crop residue incorporation results in a massive increase in greenhouse gas emissions from the soil.
 
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