Attacking trade unions and trade unionism

[belboid]

there's no depth to your politics: the only argument you've advanced to counter the tory plans is that it is hypocritical. you didn't consider the low turnout for mps might make them illegitimate, you didn't consider the way in which the low turnouts are more likely through the way ballots have to be conducted by post rather than electronically or at the workplace, you didn't come up with Lo Siento.'s point above. your politics seem, on the strength of your contributions to this thread, to be one-dimensional and unimaginative. and when your politics let you down you let ad hominems and insults (e.g. "this is why you're shit at politics") take their place.

thus proving my point

 

[Pickman's model]

thus proving my point

not a bit of it.

indeed, the principle will always be the key argument, rather than any comparison with lawmakers or whoever. But every argument helps, and pointing out tory hypocrisy is always fun.

while pointing out tory hypocrisy may be fun, when it's all you've got in your arsenal - and it is the only thing you've advanced as an argument - then you're reliant on the continued force of that argument. i don't think it will prove to have the longevity you evidently believe it to. if you've a great body of additional arguments perhaps now would be a good time to trot them out. the principle will only get you so far: it's not like the principle "waging aggressive war is a war crime" was the only argument set up against the iraq war nor that the poll tax was inherently unfair the sole opposing argument to the poll tax.

 

[belboid]

not a bit of it.while pointing out tory hypocrisy may be fun, when it's all you've got in your arsenal - and it is the only thing you've advanced as an argument - then you're reliant on the continued force of that argument. i don't think it will prove to have the longevity you evidently believe it to. if you've a great body of additional arguments perhaps now would be a good time to trot them out. the principle will only get you so far: it's not like the principle "waging aggressive war is a war crime" was the only argument set up against the iraq war nor that the poll tax was inherently unfair the sole opposing argument to the poll tax.

says the hypocrite who also proposed a single point of hypocrisy as his 'argument'

Now, why dont we get back to the actual topic, rather than your sad personal pettiness.

 

[Pickman's model]

says the hypocrite who also proposed a single point of hypocrisy as his 'argument'

Now, why dont we get back to the actual topic, rather than your sad personal pettiness.

lest we forget it wasn't me who brought something up and then admitted it had fuck all to do with the matter at hand, which is rather a fail.

 

[belboid]

lest we forget it wasn't me who brought something up and then admitted it had fuck all to do with the matter at hand, which is rather a fail.

except that didnt happen

 

[Pickman's model]

except that didnt happen

an admission that they are not comparable: and therefore nothing to do with the matter at hand. if everyone else is on about apples and you start talking about oranges then the oranges irrelevant to the conversation - that's what you've done here.

 

[Pickman's model]

says the hypocrite who also proposed a single point of hypocrisy as his 'argument'

Now, why dont we get back to the actual topic, rather than your sad personal pettiness.

the only personal pettiness has come from you ('this is why you're shit at politics' and that bit about being self-unaware)

 

[belboid]

View attachment 74091
an admission that they are not comparable: and therefore nothing to do with the matter at hand.

Things do not have to be 'equivalent' to be comparable. Indeed the fact that things aren't 'equivalent' is usually what makes it worthwhile comparing them, to see where the differences lie.

Back to the topic...

 

[Pickman's model]

Things do not have to be 'equivalent' to be comparable. Indeed the fact that things aren't 'equivalent' is usually what makes it worthwhile comparing them, to see where the differences lie.

you've shown no signs of interest in the differences between the two, between a motion for industrial action by a subset of members of a union over a particular issue and between the election of legislators for the united kingdom for a period of five years: where the latter will pass any number of motions none of which will have had throughout the support of more than a token number of mps.

Back to the topic...

i do hope so

 

[danny la rouge]

forelocks tugged

They'll want more than forelocks tugged.

 

[Pickman's model]

The media seems to concentrating on the turnout requirements, not mentioning things like criminalising mass picketing, etc.

further to our earlier exchange, the bbc report

But proposals to ban picket lines of more than six people appear to have been dropped. It will be made an offence not to have a named individual supervising a picket line.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33529248

 

[Wilf]

yes let's surrender before this has had its first reading in the commons

There may be minor changes at the committee stage - ditto the lords. But if the tories want this they will get it through. With the tories rampant and the parliamentary arithmetic, parliamentary opposition is largely irrelevant. If it gets stopped It will be due to action outside parliament.

 

[Pickman's model]

There may be minor changes at the committee stage - ditto the lords. But if the tories want this they will get it through. With the tories rampant and the parliamentary arithmetic, parliamentary opposition is largely irrelevant. If it gets stopped It will be due to action outside parliament.

i think this may spend some time going through parliament and may yet emerge in a rather different form from its current appearance. however, as dennis skinner said to me many years ago, and as you say here, action must be taken outside parliament. maybe just outside: maybe at workplaces. tbh this doesn't just hurt workers or unions, but it will also make things worse for many employers in terms of poorer relations with staff, in terms of accidents at work, and in terms of reputational damage. i suspect you'll find some bosses saying elements of this proposed legislation are stupid too.

 

[ViolentPanda]

forelocks tugged

What if you're circumcised?

 

[marty21]

serious business this - the Labour funding attack is all about denying funds to the Labour party which goes against previous cross party consensus on funding - the attack on strikes is undemocratic and an attempt to destroy the unions - and after that they can have more of a go at terms and conditions, sick pay, holiday pay, etc

 

[Pickman's model]

serious business this - the Labour funding attack is all about denying funds to the Labour party which goes against previous cross party consensus on funding - the attack on strikes is undemocratic and an attempt to destroy the unions - and after that they can have more of a go at terms and conditions, sick pay, holiday pay, etc

yeh, this is i think the big one: if they win on this, they've hit the jackpot - but if they lose...

 

[DotCommunist]

I like how subs from millions of workers is considered somehow undemocratic as a funding model yet being funded by half a dozen billionairs is somehow not

 

[marty21]

I like how subs from millions of workers is considered somehow undemocratic as a funding model yet being funded by half a dozen billionairs is somehow not

how dare you criticise the political funding of our glorious leaders in the tory party - you guttersnipe!

 

[Sprocket.]

I like how subs from millions of workers is considered somehow undemocratic as a funding model yet being funded by half a dozen billionairs is somehow not

I always thought they just passed the hat around after the Masonic assemblies!

 

[zxspectrum]

This has to be the crucible issue for the opposition. If the fail us here then that's it, game over.

 

[cesare]

This has to be the crucible issue for the opposition. If the fail us here then that's it, game over.

Do you mean the Labour Party or the SNP or both?

 

[belboid]

This has to be the crucible issue for the opposition. If the fail us here then that's it, game over.

I bet Liz fucking Kendall remains pretty bloody silent about it

 

[zxspectrum]

Do you mean the Labour Party or the SNP or both?

Mainly labor, though this will test the relationships between all opposition parties.

And the unions

 

[Sprocket.]

As always you get some twat on the radio moaning about ''why do workers need unions, they read the contract before they start! And if they don't like it just get another job!''
The blinkered, self righteous bastards

 

[Pickman's model]

As always you get some twat on the radio moaning about ''why do workers need unions, they read the contract before they start! And if they don't like it just get another job!''
The blinkered, self righteous bastards

 

[ddraig]

some twit - "I'm in an independent union because the GMB took our money and did nothing for us. Last week I got really pissed off when the tube drivers and signallers went on strike over pay and night work even though they are paid between 50K and 60K per year. I don't think I'm alone with being fed up with unions. They do a valuable job but take the piss at the same time"

me - do you think you'd have holidays and sickness if it wasn't for unions

some twit - Yes. I wasn't in one before my current job, I always had holiday, sickness and pension

me - where do you think those rights came from? do you think they are out of the goodness of the boss's/employer's heart? what independent union are you in now? why do you think tube drivers 'enjoy' such pay and conditions? do you think they and ergo everyone else should be paid less?

some twit - So the GMB were okay to take my subscription money and not turn up to disciplinary meetings or pay negotiations? My unions good and have helped me but my old company were anti Union and I still got fair deals on pay and sick. I'm sorry if you think I'm wrong and I don't get the point but I can only give you my experiences with unions

me - well the GMB were out of order and you should have escalated it to the region if they did not do their job and represent you!!.
My point is that pay, conditions, holiday and sick pay were won by trade unions for everybody whether in a trade union or not, this is a historical thing not just related to where you work or have worked!!
Which workplace do you think would have better conditions, one that had a union or one that didn't???
Why do you think you old company were anti union? what is in it for them to do that?
what independent union are you in now and why are you in it?
or would you rather a race to the bottom for all of us?

SIGH!

 

[Sprocket.]

Nah, I've done sulking until these bastards are gone! My dad would have kicked my head in for stepping back from the fray.

 

[Pickman's model]

Nah, I've done sulking until these bastards are gone! My dad would have kicked my head in for stepping back from the fray.

yeh. well, there are those who would fill your auld father's place if you retreat from the fray.

 

[Sprocket.]

yeh. well, there are those who would fill your auld father's place if you retreat from the fray.

Thanks dad!

 

[belboid]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-trade-union-strike-law-reforms-10389669.html