Atos are still doing (re)assessments despite what Gov and Press say..

[ViolentPanda]

To be frank, I think the DWP secretly hope people will find it too stressful and give up. Some more literally than others

Responses are DESIGNED to offer no encouragement. This has been the case since Incapacity Benefit was brought in to replace invalidity Benefit in the early '90s. They love that people give up, it has meant an annual under-claim of billions of pounds with regard to benefits.

 

[Chris.H.1961]

I don't think it's even a secret tbh. The whole system is founded on the idea that 90% (or insert made-up statistic here) of sick people aren't really sick they're just lazy.

recalling one or two of twat face IDS's rants now I fear you may be right Frank

 

[friendofdorothy]

They don't make the system easy. Blaggers/proffessionals are more likely to know the system than sick people. Even the govt own figures show they think only a tiny percentage of claimants are fraudulant - cant recall where I got this from but buscador might know.

 

[Roadkill]

To be frank, I think the DWP secretly hope people will find it too stressful and give up. Some more literally than others

Of course they are, and that's the main reason why so many hurdles are thrown in the way of those wanting to appeal a wrong decision, starting with mandatory reconsideration - which is in most cases just a chance for them to tell you to fuck off all over again - and culminating in the (currently) six-month wait to get a hearing.

 

[friendofdorothy]

They don't make the system easy. Blaggers/proffessionals are more likely to know the system than sick people. Even the govt own figures show they think only a tiny percentage of claimants are fraudulant - cant recall where I got this from but buscador might know.

I'm intelligent - I'm well and have a degree - but I needed help filling out forms for my partner - who couldn't deal with them. We no longer qualify /can get this help - so I'm grateful to the Atos thread on Urban in helping me fill out the last form.

 

[Chris.H.1961]

They don't make the system easy. Blaggers/proffessionals are more likely to know the system than sick people. Even the govt own figures show they think only a tiny percentage of claimants are fraudulant - cant recall where I got this from but buscador might know.

I may be wrong, but something from somewhere @ the back of my mind is saying it's about .8 percent

 

[Chris.H.1961]

Of course they are, and that's the main reason why so many hurdles are thrown in the way of those wanting to appeal a wrong decision, starting with mandatory reconsideration - which is in most cases just a chance for them to tell you to fuck off all over again - and culminating in the (currently) six-month wait to get a hearing.

I couldn't agree more. They get turned over on appeal so they change the rules and the law to make it more difficult. They then cut funding to the likes of CAB so it's more difficult to get help.

I remember being able to just pop into the local CAB office and get seen within the hour, now you are talking about waiting months - if you are lucky - before getting an appointment.

I know both sides of the political divide can be as bad as each other, but the Tories seem to relish sticking it to the Welfare State so much more.

 

[buscador]

Responses are DESIGNED to offer no encouragement. This has been the case since Incapacity Benefit was brought in to replace invalidity Benefit in the early '90s. They love that people give up, it has meant an annual under-claim of billions of pounds with regard to benefits.

Yes, and this is why the private companies that now run hostels etc find it economical to employ people to ensure that all of their "clients" get all of the benefits to which they may be entitled. You will not be surprised to know that staff actually working with these vulnerable people receive minimum wage. It's a fucking disgrace.

 

[iamwithnail]

I may be wrong, but something from somewhere @ the back of my mind is saying it's about .8 percent

Yeah spot on,fraud and error runs just over 2ish percent, on average. I wrote this a couple of years ago but the figures haven't really changed.

 

[Chris.H.1961]

Yeah spot on,fraud and error runs just over 2ish percent, on average. I wrote this a couple of years ago but the figures haven't really changed.

Sometimes the old grey matter still retains stuff. Like the other week for example.

A question on Only Connect - can't recall what it was - and I immediately said (to no-one in particular) 'the seventh hexadecimal'..

No idea whatsoever what it is/means but it was correct

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yes, and this is why the prihate companies that now run hostels etc find it economical to employ people to ensure that all of their "clients" get all of the benefits to which they may be entitled. You will not be surprised to know that staff actually working with these vulnerable people receive minimum wage. It's a fucking disgrace.

You're right, I'm totally unsurprised. The whole switch from social services depts providing services to primarily commissioning services was only ever about facilitating the flow of public money into private pockets.

 

[iamwithnail]

Privatise the profit, socialise the losses.

 

[zippyRN]

there does seem to be some confusion of sympathy with empathy going on. Empathy has a very firm place in Healthcare practice as does compassion , rather than sympathetic, it is possible and to be empathic and compassionate in care without tipping into the very real risk of the negative consequencens that sympathy can have on the relationship.

yes i am an advocate of integration and normalisation , while a proprtion of people with vchronic conditions are not going to be in a position to work , or are due to a degenerative condition are going to find their options and opportunites diminishing over time, there does seem to be a sense of inevitability in all with some people, perhpas i'm loucky or biased but there seems to be a real risk now that people are of a mindset where the disease management process is overtaking the public and patient perception of some conditions, given we have people with CF in their 40s and 50s and people who sustained cervical spine injuries 40 -50 years ago, plus the lagacy of the 5 years posat injury parapelgics who have now knackered their shoulders as no-one envisaged their survial beyond 10-20 years post injury , HIV is increasingly moving from a death sentance to something along the lines of DIabetes in terms of impact on daily life

 

[Bakunin]

Privatise the profit, socialise the losses.

Monetise us cripples.

 

[zippyRN]

They don't make the system easy. Blaggers/proffessionals are more likely to know the system than sick people. Even the govt own figures show they think only a tiny percentage of claimants are fraudulant - cant recall where I got this from but buscador might know.

yet crazily i've been accused of being all sorts by suggesting that when making theinitial applications especially for DLA/PIP the advice of a experienced benefits advisor, ideally one with some experience of your main condition can be very useful . forms wise a lot of it is about the wording - it's a lot harder to blag the actual assessments but if your form and supporting evidence indicates that your condition is variable and fluctuating ...

 

[iamwithnail]

Then the overwhelming evidence from three independent reviews shows that you'll be turned down, in all likelihood.

 

[friendofdorothy]

there does seem to be some confusion of sympathy with empathy going on. Empathy has a very firm place in Healthcare practice as does compassion , rather than sympathetic, it is possible and to be empathic and compassionate in care without tipping into the very real risk of the negative consequencens that sympathy can have on the relationship.

I hadn't noticed any confusion, but your earlier posts seemed to lack empathy, sympathy or compassion.

yes i am an advocate of integration and normalisation , while a proprtion of people with vchronic conditions are not going to be in a position to work

That hasn't stopped them being found fit to work by Atos. Or those with critical conditions or progressive conditions too, for that matter.

A friend of mine in her mid 60s had cancer. She had had masectomy, chemo, infections, complications, who had restricted movement in her arms and still felt ill, sore and exhaused - Atos found her fit to work. She had to report to the job centre to sign on, who would often keep her waiting out in the rain if she was early. Was that to integrate her and make her feel normal? Where was the compassion then. Did she appeal? no, because she couldn't face the stress of the process. She was so close to retirement age the appeal process would have taken longer.

 

[Chris.H.1961]

I used to laugh watching Rainbow and the way Bungle, after having his fill of Zippy talking shite, used to just zip him shut.

Oh where are you now Bungle

 

[ViolentPanda]

yet crazily i've been accused of being all sorts by suggesting that when making theinitial applications especially for DLA/PIP the advice of a experienced benefits advisor, ideally one with some experience of your main condition can be very useful . forms wise a lot of it is about the wording - it's a lot harder to blag the actual assessments but if your form and supporting evidence indicates that your condition is variable and fluctuating ...

...it'll make little difference, because what comes into play with regard to variable/fluctuating conditions and their assessment is the assessor taking the lower incidence of problems as the baseline, rather than taking an average between the lowest and highest rates. Yet another reason why significant numbers of DLA decisions are revised at tribunal.

BTW, I'm not sure which planet you're on, but in the last 4 years most local authorities have shed "welfare advice" funding like a snake sheds skin. Here in Lambeth, we've lost around 60% of all provision over the last 4 years, and we're one of the better-off boroughs, with regard to what provision we have left! Finding an "experienced benefits advisor" is difficult, verging on impossible. Just getting basic HB and JSA advice is a labour of patience for claimants, let alone unearthing someone who understands the vagaries of IB/ESA or DLA/PIP and your own particular health condition(s).

 

[zippyRN]

Funnily enough there are significant numbers of people with expertise in DLA /PIP applications in the third sector with the better end ( i.e. none magic bullet woo merchants) of the condition specific support groups , plus of course many OTs have significant skills and experience in such topics ...

Unfortunately in the situation of spending vastly exceeding reciepts as we saw uinder the Blair and Brown governments something is going to have ot give and the vast armies of none-jobs in the public secotr were the immediate and obvious targets - certainly at the cost of protectign actual service provision

 

[Chris.H.1961]

Funnily enough there are significant numbers of people with expertise in DLA /PIP applications in the third sector with the better end ( i.e. none magic bullet woo merchants) of the condition specific support groups , plus of course many OTs have significant skills and experience in such topics ...

Yawn Yawn Yawn

 

[Roadkill]

Unfortunately in the situation of spending vastly exceeding reciepts as we saw uinder the Blair and Brown governments something is going to have ot give and the vast armies of none-jobs in the public secotr were the immediate and obvious targets - certainly at the cost of protectign actual service provision

Oh dear. Idiotic right-wing cliches alert.

The national debt - which had been coming down since the late 1940s - was at a near-record low by 2000. It is true that thereafter the Blair-Brown governments ran a small deficit, which was a mistake since a small deficit in good times turns into a large one in bad, but you're in effect regurgitating the Mail cliches about Labour running up record debts, which simply is not true. As for these 'vast armies of non-jobs,' I'd love to see some figures. I can think of pointless positions in the public sector, but then I can think of plenty of equally pointless ones in the private sector.

Your agenda here is becoming very obvious.

 

[zippyRN]

none jobs in the publc sector - let's start with 90 +% of the band 5 and above NONE Health Professional jobs created during the reign of the great leader and the dear leader ... thane answer to any question in the NHS during that period was to create yet more lay Manager posts - these posts were created as lay manager posts instead of giving senior Health professionals better admin support ( how many people in a the private sector managing a team of 100 people don't have any admin support, but instead have a lay manager of the same grade who has no concept of the service provision, understanding of the practicalities of the service but they have got a clipboard and set of crowd pleasing but ultimately meaningless statistics to collect, which will be the sole measure of the service and a certificate from some mickey mouse in house training school that makes than a " lean project agility manager sky blue pink belt " .

we had a system which despite 'bringing back matron' did no such thing it just put burnt out under qualified ex -nurses who kept their registration on scanty grounds back into uniform ( sorry to any Matrons and ADNs reading this but the majority of band 8+s in management i've met do fulfill that picture ) to do the exact same job they did before in mufti ... Odd isn;t it how other professions would not expect a professional manager who is not an expert practitioner

 

[Chris.H.1961]

none jobs in the publc sector - let's start with 90 +% of the band 5 and above NONE Health Professional jobs created during the reign of the great leader and the dear leader ... thane answer to any question in the NHS during that period was to create yet more lay Manager posts - these posts were created as lay manager posts instead of giving senior Health professionals better admin support ( how many people in a the private sector managing a team of 100 people don't have any admin support, but instead have a lay manager of the same grade who has no concept of the service provision, understanding of the practicalities of the service but they have got a clipboard and set of crowd pleasing but ultimately meaningless statistics to collect, which will be the sole measure of the service and a certificate from some mickey mouse in house training school that makes than a " lean project agility manager sky blue pink belt " .

we had a system which despite 'bringing back matron' did no such thing it just put burnt out under qualified ex -nurses who kept their registration on scanty grounds back into uniform ( sorry to any Matrons and ADNs reading this but the majority of band 8+s in management i've met do fulfill that picture ) to do the exact same job they did before in mufti ... Odd isn;t it how other professions would not expect a professional manager who is not an expert practitioner

This thread has sweet fuck all to do with most of the shite you are spouting Zippy, so I politely suggest you either stay on point, or - preferably - just fuck off

 

[Greebo]

This thread has sweet fuck all to do with most of the shite you are spouting Zippy, so I politely suggest you either stay on point, or - preferably - just fuck off

Word.

 

[DotCommunist]

if he must grind his axe let him do it on a thread of his own making.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Funnily enough there are significant numbers of people with expertise in DLA /PIP applications in the third sector with the better end ( i.e. none magic bullet woo merchants) of the condition specific support groups , plus of course many OTs have significant skills and experience in such topics ...

Yes, the MS Society, for example, retains half a dozen welfare advice experts...to cover the entire UK - they can't afford more. Same with MacMillans and loads of others. Donations have either plateaud or decreased since 2008, and the third sector has ended up, by default, having to shed advice personnel just like the public sector has.

Unfortunately in the situation of spending vastly exceeding reciepts as we saw uinder the Blair and Brown governments something is going to have ot give and the vast armies of none-jobs in the public secotr were the immediate and obvious targets - certainly at the cost of protectign actual service provision

It's always interesting to see someone ignorant of how economics works (in cycles, as was realised at least three centuries ago), and how the private sector-induced "credit crunch" interrupted the economic cycle, put the blame on what is basically the target of their own political bias.
Here's the sad truth: Whichever party was in government would have been spending roughly the same amount of money at that period of the economic cycle, and the "credit crunch" would have caused that party exactly the same problems as it caused Labour, with regard to not completing the economic cycle. Nothing to do with "public sector non-jobs" or other bugbears of the economically-illiterate right.

 

[ViolentPanda]

This thread has sweet fuck all to do with most of the shite you are spouting Zippy, so I politely suggest you either stay on point, or - preferably - just fuck off

He probably got kicked off the Femail forum.

 

[zippyRN]

Yes, the MS Society, for example, retains half a dozen welfare advice experts...to cover the entire UK - they can't afford more. Same with MacMillans and loads of others. Donations have either plateaud or decreased since 2008, and the third sector has ended up, by default, having to shed advice personnel just like the public sector has.

<snip>

the bloated troughing part of the third sector might have been shedding jobs, other third sector organisations have maintained services despite the challenging economic picture and a few have been brave and gone round culling none job holders (paid and volunteers) and undertaken organisational transformation into far stronger providers - still with significant volunteer management and loads of volunteer service delivery ( taking work back off the private sector who sold themselves as 'more professional' ) supported by well managed paid service delivery working in complementary parts of their industry .

part of the problem with both the public sector and parts of the third sector is that hey think that a businesslike and 'profitable' working is not needed becasue they aren't businesses with an Owner and/or shareholders to please.

 

[ViolentPanda]

the bloated troughing part of the third sector might have been shedding jobs, other third sector organisations have maintained services despite the challenging economic picture and a few have been brave and gone round culling none job holders (paid and volunteers) and undertaken organisational transformation into far stronger providers - still with significant volunteer management and loads of volunteer service delivery ( taking work back off the private sector who sold themselves as 'more professional' ) supported by well managed paid service delivery working in complementary parts of their industry .

part of the problem with both the public sector and parts of the third sector is that hey think that a businesslike and 'profitable' working is not needed becasue they aren't businesses with an Owner and/or shareholders to please.

For a start, the majority of jobs shed by the third sector in the past 5-6 years haven't been due to "bloat", but to an attempt back in the noughties to engineer a fundamental change in the nature of welfare (in line with neoliberal economic predicates) so that it revolves around what "new Labour" christened "the third sector", and the Tories attempted to sell as "the Big Society" - two names for the same thing, which is the use of charities and voluntary organisations as service providers under contract to the state. This works fine when the state doesn't grasp the spurious excuse of "austerity" to trim public spending, but causes chaos, "bust" charities and a lack of service provision when they do. Many of the charities that have weathered the last half-decade well have done so because they didn't get more than minimally tied-up in service provision contracts, and even they have had to make economies (although unfortunaely not generally in management, but in service provision).

As for your trope about public and third sector attitudes to business, given the top-down managerialism in both sectors, that hasn't been the case for going on 15 years. Everything has to be measured against various business metrics.