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Art that people rave about that's actually shit.

31_Jackson_Pollack_Painting.jpg

Apols if retreading old ground, but I've never understood this painting. It looks to me like it's a painting for painters - like if you look at it as a painter you get a sense of the physicality of the act of what resulted in that paint on that canvas and to a painter it is almost more like watching dance than an attempt at a 'picture' in terms of visual representation. I'm not a painter but the sheer energy of it and the weaving of the layers makes me think maybe that's what's going on.

I know sometimes I can listen to Ira Kaplan playing a guitar solo and it is almost more about physical sensuality more than trying to play a tune.

Is there anything in that or is that just a brain fart? :D
 
I haven't ploughed through all the thread yet, but I do think anyone who hasn't actually seen a Rothko in real life had best reserve judgement.

I wasn't too keen until I stood in front of them in the Tate. They actually moved me to tears.

The true 'sublime moment' is evoked by the feelings a painting like that evokes in the viewer, but you do have to give it a chance.

The 'unpresentable is presented' then; and each person will feel something different; that is the power of the artist.

Photoshop can indeed do most things - but still certain artworks have a quality that does something to your insides - I call it the sublime.

Read Lyotard - that's where I got most of this :)
 
Referring to Pollock, I'm not an expert on his work but again I think his work might be an invocation of the sublime.

The eye travels across his canvases, encountering endless focuses of energy, but you can't make a cohesive understanding of the whole.

Lyotard saw the sublime as a situation mixed with pleasure and pain because you couldn't make a complete comprehension of the subject ( but you knew it was something terrible and wonderful). He thought abstract painting was a particularly useful area for examining this emotion or feeling.

Kant dealt with this stuff too, but I'm not sure I'm clever enough to explain it :(
 
I guess at the end of the day it doesn't matter why you love something, the love on its own is enough..
Its something rare and to be cherished when an artwork moves you at that level.
The love I feel for the Van Gogh picture is based almost entirely on his use of colour, the green-orange-gold. It makes me tingle inside.
I don't need to read an essay in order to appreciate that.
 
Referring to Pollock, I'm not an expert on his work but again I think his work might be an invocation of the sublime.

The eye travels across his canvases, encountering endless focuses of energy, but you can't make a cohesive understanding of the whole.
Pollocks work is also fractal which could explain some of the energy in it, from a mathematical point of view
http://discovermagazine.com/2001/nov/featpollock
 
The love I feel for the Van Gogh picture is based almost entirely on his use of colour, the green-orange-gold. It makes me tingle inside.

Eva Hesse said almost exactly the same thing when talking about Carl Andre's work, she said ' his work does something to my insides', I van give the reference if anyone's really interested :)

I think these reactions are all examples of sublime moments, absolutely agree that you don't need to read essays to appreciate that:)

It's just that I'm writing a dissertation around this stuff and am a bit obsessed right now :(
 
His art is "famous" because - after his death - people became habituated to the style of his art, and saw it as part of a larger artistic movement, which added context that didn't exist while he was alive.

Isn't that a retrospective analysis though? I mean don't you think that at the time people liked his work and responded emotionally to it? That like a ripple in a pond more people got to see and like the work first and later began to analyse and establish connections between his style and other previous and indeed subsequent styles?

Eva Hesse said almost exactly the same thing when talking about Carl Andre's work, she said ' his work does something to my insides', I van give the reference if anyone's really interested :)

I think these reactions are all examples of sublime moments, absolutely agree that you don't need to read essays to appreciate that:)

It's just that I'm writing a dissertation around this stuff and am a bit obsessed right now :(

Thank you. This was and is the point I was making. :)
 
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Did you expect a medal for shitstirring then?
you seem to suffer from something like cognitive dissonance, only in your case you think people are saying one thing when they are saying something rather different. i am saying you're a shitty little hypocrite because you tell people to fuck off then get all huffy when people say you might be told to fuck off in the future.
 
The emotional response of the observer is a response to and interaction with the emotional message, quality and depth of the artist's endeavours.

Consider this....

"The emotions are sometimes so strong that I work without knowing it."
Vincent Van Gogh


"The people that weep before my paintings are having the same religious experience that I had when I painted it."
Mark Rothko

"True art lies in a reality that is felt."
Odilon Redon



"Art is the concrete representation of our most subtle feelings."
Agnes Martin



"It is important to express oneself... provided the feelings are real and are taken from you own experience."
Berthe Morisot



"By suprematism I mean the supremacy of pure feeling in creative art."
Kasimir Malevich



"A work of art is a world in itself reflecting senses and emotions of the artist's world."
Hans Hoffman

Painting is with me but another word for feeling.
John Constable



Only love interests me, and I am only in contact with things that revolve around love.
Marc Chagall



The artist can know all the technique in the world, but if he feels nothing, it will mean nothing.
Chen Chi



Throughout the time in which I am working on a canvas I can feel how I am beginning to love it, with that love which is born of slow comprehension.
Joan Miro



Who told you that one paints with colors? One makes use of colors, but one paints with emotions.
Jean-Baptiste-Simeon Chardin



A work of art which did not begin in emotion is not art.
Paul Cezanne


None of which contradict what I said.
And for fuck's sake, next time don't just google up a reply, use your own words and ideas.
 
I'm a philistine and haven't read the thread but reckon it's a fair bet someone has had a go at Warhol, who I immediately just 'got'. I loved that soup tin and got it right away. Like Bob Dylan and H R Geiger. I'm not sure about this 'is actually shit' business. i do have an instinct towards snobbery, though - I do think some stuff *is* just shit.

There's always been a tension between what some people choose to call "high art", and what Adorno and Horkheimer called "mass culture" (i.e. culture that was both "for the masses" and mass-produced). Indeed, they perceived mass culture as a threat to "high art".
Me, I think that Warhol, with his endless iterations of the same object, can easily co-exist alongside the work of the Old Masters, and that "shit" is often in the eye of the beholder - a function of the shit-seer's cultural education.
 
My daughter is extremely good at art, in the sense of being able to draw things that make people go "ooh," but she will never go to art school. She doesn't want to and she would fail if she went there. That's because she's a terrible, absolutely awful liar: if a wicked witch turned her into a male cow she still couldn't produce enough bullshit to get an art degree these days.* And she's good with writing in the abstract - she writes poetry, etc (has won quite big awards for it) so that's not the issue.

That's the problem with some abstract art. Some of it still makes you go "ooh," but in order to get it exhibited the artist has to write a load of utter codswallop about meaningful it is. Part of the reason they have to write that stuff is because otherwise it's just a piece of white paper and really, literally anyone could do the actual "art" part of it.

If you have to turn your head to read the little box with the artist's description of the artwork before you appreciate the artwork, then the artwork has failed, IMO. The description should add to the art, not be essential to making you have a response.

I don't include Rothko in this but only because, as many others have said, you have to see his work in real life to get it. I find it interesting, ina good way, that in this internet age one of the most popular artists is one whose art really does not work well on the internet at all.

Also, I kinda suspect that if the green blob had been posted by Dr Herbz, with him saying it was made by him, those of you who like it wouldn't have. It would have looked like it was sold by Ikea or something (it does). In some contexts I do think it could be lovely - like on the side of a very flat building, but not in spraypaint - but on the internet it really is a blob and looks like something done in MSpaint using the select tool.


*She does lie occasionally. I've mentioned it elsewhere. She's really bad at it. She might as well interpose (lie) in between every other word when she does tell untruths because it's so fucking obvious. An autistic thing, apparently. Like that kid in The Middle.
 
My daughter is extremely good at art, in the sense of being able to draw things that make people go "ooh," but she will never go to art school. She doesn't want to and she would fail if she went there. That's because she's a terrible, absolutely awful liar: if a wicked witch turned her into a male cow she still couldn't produce enough bullshit to get an art degree these days.* And she's good with writing in the abstract - she writes poetry, etc (has won quite big awards for it) so that's not the issue.

That's the problem with some abstract art. Some of it still makes you go "ooh," but in order to get it exhibited the artist has to write a load of utter codswallop about meaningful it is. Part of the reason they have to write that stuff is because otherwise it's just a piece of white paper and really, literally anyone could do the actual "art" part of it.

If you have to turn your head to read the little box with the artist's description of the artwork before you appreciate the artwork, then the artwork has failed, IMO. The description should add to the art, not be essential to making you have a response.

I don't include Rothko in this but only because, as many others have said, you have to see his work in real life to get it. I find it interesting, ina good way, that in this internet age one of the most popular artists is one whose art really does not work well on the internet at all.

Also, I kinda suspect that if the green blob had been posted by Dr Herbz, with him saying it was made by him, those of you who like it wouldn't have. It would have looked like it was sold by Ikea or something (it does). In some contexts I do think it could be lovely - like on the side of a very flat building, but not in spraypaint - but on the internet it really is a blob and looks like something done in MSpaint using the select tool.


*She does lie occasionally. I've mentioned it elsewhere. She's really bad at it. She might as well interpose (lie) in between every other word when she does tell untruths because it's so fucking obvious. An autistic thing, apparently. Like that kid in The Middle.

At art school, and in the art world, you equally have to write reams of justification/explanation about your work if it's representational. It's not a situation unique to abstract work.

This has filtered down to schools with pupils studying art needing to write, and read, to support their work. Depending on the exam board the actual "pictures" might only count for 25% of the mark.
 
Me, I think that Warhol, with his endless iterations of the same object, can easily co-exist alongside the work of the Old Masters, and that "shit" is often in the eye of the beholder - a function of the shit-seer's cultural education.

That said, I really enjoyed Art Is Dead, Long Live TV.
 
I think it's very useful to be able to talk about your work.

In my own practice it has helped me move forward with research and define exactly what I'm trying to do.

And that has opened me up to ideas and possibilities that I might not have considered before; in fact it's been a revelation. :)

And as chilango says, it applies to all manner of practice - representational, abstract even craft based stuff like jewellery.
 
At art school, and in the art world, you equally have to write reams of justification/explanation about your work if it's representational. It's not a situation unique to abstract work.

This has filtered down to schools with pupils studying art needing to write, and read, to support their work. Depending on the exam board the actual "pictures" might only count for 25% of the mark.

That's my point - even if the art is representational, and uses high-level art techniques (things like building up glazes, as mentioned elsewhere in the thread), it won't get a high mark without something written down to say "I was inspired by... this represents..." All loads of blah, really.

Why not say "show an appreciation of perspective in your art," and "demonstrate skill in application of glazes to build up colours"? You know, stuff that actually helps to make the picture have more impact or at least shows more technical skill? It's not like art, at A level and below, is a subject that's impossible to apply objective criteria to that actually relate to art.

OK, include some research and descriptions, but 75% of the grade? That means that people who are crap at art but good at research get better grades than those who are good at art.

My daughter got a C on her art GCSE. I know she's my daughter, but she deserved better than a C. I'm realistic about her abilties and she creates stuff that's just wonderful to look at.

I queried the grade and was told that one of the criteria for a B or above was to have a well-organised portfolio. TBF, her art teacher did emphasise that a lot too, but my daughter just kept drawing pretty things that met the specifications and sometimes put them in the wrong places. And it was never clearly explained what having a well-organised portfolio was. Seriously, I read the AQA specifications and it still wasn't clear what you had to actually do.

She literally lost marks, for art, for not being organised enough. That's not art, that's accountancy. She did get an A in English and that's why she was accepted onto art A level. I only hope she can learn to bullshit enough for a good grade, but I dislike the idea of teaching my daughter to bullshit.
 
That's my point - even if the art is representational, and uses high-level art techniques (things like building up glazes, as mentioned elsewhere in the thread), it won't get a high mark without something written down to say "I was inspired by... this represents..." All loads of blah, really.

Why not say "show an appreciation of perspective in your art," and "demonstrate skill in application of glazes to build up colours"? You know, stuff that actually helps to make the picture have more impact or at least shows more technical skill? It's not like art, at A level and below, is a subject that's impossible to apply objective criteria to that actually relate to art.

OK, include some research and descriptions, but 75% of the grade? That means that people who are crap at art but good at research get better grades than those who are good at art.

My daughter got a C on her art GCSE. I know she's my daughter, but she deserved better than a C. I'm realistic about her abilties and she creates stuff that's just wonderful to look at.

I queried the grade and was told that one of the criteria for a B or above was to have a well-organised portfolio. TBF, her art teacher did emphasise that a lot too, but my daughter just kept drawing pretty things that met the specifications and sometimes put them in the wrong places. And it was never clearly explained what having a well-organised portfolio was. Seriously, I read the AQA specifications and it still wasn't clear what you had to actually do.

She literally lost marks, for art, for not being organised enough. That's not art, that's accountancy. She did get an A in English and that's why she was accepted onto art A level. I only hope she can learn to bullshit enough for a good grade, but I dislike the idea of teaching my daughter to bullshit.
if she studies art she'll have to bullshit.
 
At art school, and in the art world, you equally have to write reams of justification/explanation about your work if it's representational. It's not a situation unique to abstract work.

This has filtered down to schools with pupils studying art needing to write, and read, to support their work. Depending on the exam board the actual "pictures" might only count for 25% of the mark.

This is extremely silly.
 
That's my point - even if the art is representational, and uses high-level art techniques (things like building up glazes, as mentioned elsewhere in the thread), it won't get a high mark without something written down to say "I was inspired by... this represents..." All loads of blah, really.

Why not say "show an appreciation of perspective in your art," and "demonstrate skill in application of glazes to build up colours"? You know, stuff that actually helps to make the picture have more impact or at least shows more technical skill? It's not like art, at A level and below, is a subject that's impossible to apply objective criteria to that actually relate to art.

OK, include some research and descriptions, but 75% of the grade? That means that people who are crap at art but good at research get better grades than those who are good at art.

My daughter got a C on her art GCSE. I know she's my daughter, but she deserved better than a C. I'm realistic about her abilties and she creates stuff that's just wonderful to look at.

I queried the grade and was told that one of the criteria for a B or above was to have a well-organised portfolio. TBF, her art teacher did emphasise that a lot too, but my daughter just kept drawing pretty things that met the specifications and sometimes put them in the wrong places. And it was never clearly explained what having a well-organised portfolio was. Seriously, I read the AQA specifications and it still wasn't clear what you had to actually do.

She literally lost marks, for art, for not being organised enough. That's not art, that's accountancy. She did get an A in English and that's why she was accepted onto art A level. I only hope she can learn to bullshit enough for a good grade, but I dislike the idea of teaching my daughter to bullshit.

It doesn't have to be bullshit though, it should be being able to contextualise your work and express this in an academic manner using the specialist vocabulary of the discipline.

Which, sadly, often leads to bullshit.

I'm not sure how I feel about it to be honest.

I think it's a very useful, and important skill, but it does alienate many non-academic students who otherwise thrive in art classes.

But then the education system sucks all round, this is just one manifestation of it.
 
That's my point - even if the art is representational, and uses high-level art techniques (things like building up glazes, as mentioned elsewhere in the thread), it won't get a high mark without something written down to say "I was inspired by... this represents..." All loads of blah, really.

not at all ime. because the process is important in so much work - showing your working, explaining the route you covered to arrive at this place, informing about elements of the work that may have gone into its construction but which aren't obvious in the final piece. because good art work always has a story behind it. even if that story is purely technical or aesthetic - totally subjective - but original work will always have that underpinning, can always be explained by its maker, even in a single sentence.

eta: i'm working on an artist statement atm, it's really not as easy at it looks ;)
 
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Isn't that a retrospective analysis though? I mean don't you think that at the time people liked his work and responded emotionally to it? That like a ripple in a pond more people got to see and like the work first and later began to analyse and establish connections between his style and other previous and indeed subsequent styles?

Some people liked his work. Remember that he's working in an environment where 20-30 years of impressionism have already changed the Paris art establishment. And, while he may have serious mental health issues, his brother is an art dealer. He has exhibitions during his lifetime, but his work isn't really picked up (partly why he starts studying colour). Post-impressionist artists and critics continue to push his work and smaller galleries/dealers keep it going, but it's not a case of a sort of ripple of instinctive appreciation - they explain why they like it, they explain it (see Aurier's essay on him).

This is not to say that you can't have an immediate, visceral reaction to an artwork. However that reaction is to some extent conditioned. We live in an environment where Van Gogh is so much a part of life that he will be one of the first paintings you see, one of the first you learn about. A couple of examples by way of illustration: I had a probably somewhat mediocre painting of a ship on my wall for most of my childhood... It's a schooner on wooden boards, probably some family link I suppose. I really like that painting. I don't think it's particularly good (I'm no expert on paintings of schooners on wooden boards), but it has always been there - it was one of the first pieces of art I saw. The same goes for a painting of a sheep that my mum's had as long as I can remember (that actually is quite good - sort of impressionist thing of the head - the eye is great). These are not paintings that are in any way famous, but they are paintings that I might otherwise walk past in any gallery.

Your argument was that you can love Van Gogh instinctively, without knowing anything about him whereas abstract art requires explanation. My issue with that is that you can't know how you would react to Van Gogh if you didn't have a very specific cultural background. Your world is one where the ideas of Van Gogh have been accepted, and where his paintings can form part of the fabric of normal life. As a child seeing a very specific piece of his entire output - Bedroom in Arles - there are some things that will stand out. I think the bright simplicity of the scene is something that a child will have an instinctive appreciation for, colours and life etc. Especially when contrasted with the other kinds of art people put on there walls. A lot of his work wouldn't provoke that reaction - not his darker stuff, not his take on Japanese woodcuts etc. There are many other works by other painters that might give the same reaction, but they are not hanging on your aunt's wall.

You C&P'd some artist quotations upthread, about the importance of emotion in art. More than half of those artists are painters who work with varying degrees of abstraction. They are not writing lengthy justifications for their art and I'm willing to bet that if you pop over to the Tate modern tomorrow for a look at Malevich there you won't find a lengthy explanation justifying the positioning of specific forms. You'll get a general summary giving the social context at the time; explaining attitudes to art in pre/early-revolutionary Russia and you'll get a brief description of what suprematism is - i.e filling in a cultural backdrop that you do not have. I think the same goes for Pollock, Rothko and many others.

My grandmother was a modernist architect, worked for Goldfinger. One of her friends was a guy called HT Cadbury-Brown (designed the RCA, worked on festival of Britain) and I used to go to his house quite a lot when visiting her and after she died. The art he had on his walls included everything from woodcuts of Palladian building plans to posters from various exhibitions. By the door he had a print of a Matisse cut-out. I loved that picture - one of the very simple blue and white ones. That primacy of one colour, the simplicity of it but the impression of motion and vitality. This was not an intellectual reaction, it was based on a combination of context and the ability of the artist.

In summary what I am saying is that you are wrong when you say you can't have an emotional reaction to modern art. That your reaction to Van Gogh is partly conditioned by the social context he is set in. The two relate because not many people are exposed to modern art in the same way that they are to Van Gogh. It takes some level of engagement to see what the artist is trying to achieve. Someone born in Kyoto might take one look at Van Gogh painting Japanese woodcuts and say 'this guy really doesn't understand art' - it requires some level of commitment to understand the context that the painter is working in. In the case of Van Gogh that context is so much a part of your life that you saw his work when you were 5. I am not talking about the kind of elaborate justifications you might see today (very much in two minds about that), just taking a few small steps to think about what context the painter is working in. Art is not made to be directly visually appealing, it's there to present some kind of interpretation. You might as well write off Goya because his figures are ugly.
 
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