Argentina to fly the flag of Las Malvinas at London Olympics

[1%er]

If you think anyone takes Mercosur seriously - even in S America - you need your head seeing to. They're an irrelevant talking shop that the business community largely ignores, as do most ordinary people in fact
And, umm, can you think of one rather obvious reason why Uruguay might be rather keen on keeping well in with Argentina?

I think lots of people said that about the common market back in the day, it seems to have a great deal of relevance now

Paraguay, whilst landlocked, is on the Paraguay river, and has a large deep water port at Asuncion.

Very many vessels are registered in Paraguay, because of the two year restriction on foreign vessels being able to remain in Mercosur countries. It easy to register your boat there if you pay the money

 

[Streathamite]

I think lots of people said that about the common market back in the day, it seems to have a great deal of relevance now

not really, the ISTC and the original 6 member EEC were the creation of the business community (the original vision was a merchant banker's) so as to forestall a repeat of the 1930s (and 1939!), one way and another. European big business were its' strongest supporters, notwithstanding the occasional business eurosceptic here - mainly cos its' rules were written for their benefit.
Also, mercosur's been going long enough to have got that buy-in by now, if it was ever going to

 

[Streathamite]

Paraguay, whilst landlocked, is on the Paraguay river, and has a large deep water port at Asuncion.

Ok, but fully navigable by bleedin' huge tankers and other MV?

 

[Spymaster]

Yes, I think it is. There are no dams and it's a big old river, second biggest in SA. It's over 600 miles from Ascuncion to the sea though.

 

[1%er]

not really, the ISTC and the original 6 member EEC were the creation of the business community (the original vision was a merchant banker's) so as to forestall a repeat of the 1930s (and 1939!), one way and another. European big business were its' strongest supporters, notwithstanding the occasional business eurosceptic here - mainly cos its' rules were written for their benefit.
Also, mercosur's been going long enough to have got that buy-in by now, if it was ever going to

Most areas of the world have these kind of trading blocks and in the main they are as you describe them.

What I can tell you is the political class are looking at much closer union and I believe it will come in time. If you except that the economic differences between countries in the central and south American blocks are to diverse to merge, you'll see why things are moving very slowly (they have only to look at today's EU to learn that lesson).

If, and it is a very big "if", the Brazilian economy keeps growing at its current rate it will become the Germany of South America and be able to support other countries and with regional growth at around 4.5% others will also be able to afford the expansion of mercosur.

I am not a fan of mercosur, just giving an opinion as someone who has spent many years leaving in central and south America.

 

[Giles]

It's also an empty gesture - the vessels can simply change their flag to the normal UK merchant naval one.

Are there ANY significant ocean-going cargo ships registered in the Falklands? I mean, fishing boats, yes, but actual big cargo ships?

I suspect not very many at all, making this even more of an empty, "let's talk tough" gesture.

Giles..

 

[Streathamite]

Most areas of the world have these kind of trading blocks and in the main they are as you describe them.

Not just like the EU, as that was conceived and instituted as a specific response to a specific historical problem (how to prevent a repeat of WW2)

What I can tell you is the political class are looking at much closer union and I believe it will come in time. If you except that the economic differences between countries in the central and south American blocks are to diverse to merge, you'll see why things are moving very slowly (they have only to look at today's EU to learn that lesson).

I know all this, I have extensive experience of latin america (travelling and doing business) going back 20 years, and the question is; what type of closer union? political, in which case how much surrender of sovereignty? monetary? free trade area? schengen-style?
Either way, mercosur has not once gained the commanding support of either people or big business, mainly because it started as a political talking shop, rather than an economic plan, and the political classes of S America don't have that glorious a history (Peron, angharita medina and modern day mavericks like morales, lula and chavez excepted)

If, and it is a very big "if", the Brazilian economy keeps growing at its current rate it will become the Germany of South America

c'mon, Brazil is NOT going to become the Germany of latin america, and the germans are none too keen on propping anyone up themselves, these days

and be able to support other countries and with regional growth at around 4.5% others will also be able to afford the expansion of mercosur.

I really, really can't see this happening, not given the current global economic situation. Brazil and venezuela have huge natural resource assets, but home-owned manufacturing still has a huge long way to go.

I am not a fan of mercosur, just giving an opinion as someone who has spent many years leaving in central and south America

hey! snap!
e2a; also, the service sector, and new 'sunrise' industries, in a continent STILL primarily driven by agriculture, fishing etc, is a long way off rivalling that of Europe.

 

[1%er]

Not just like the EU, as that was conceived and instituted as a specific response to a specific historical problem (how to prevent a repeat of WW2)

I know all this, I have extensive experience of latin america (travelling and doing business) going back 20 years, and the question is; what type of closer union? political, in which case how much surrender of sovereignty? monetary? free trade area? schengen-style?
Either way, mercosur has not once gained the commanding support of either people or big business, mainly because it started as a political talking shop, rather than an economic plan, and the political classes of S America don't have that glorious a history (Peron, angharita medina and modern day mavericks like morales, lula and chavez excepted)

c'mon, Brazil is NOT going to become the Germany of latin america, and the germans are none too keen on propping anyone up themselves, these days

I really, really can't see this happening, not given the current global economic situation. Brazil and venezuela have huge natural resource assets, but home-owned manufacturing still has a huge long way to go.

hey! snap!
e2a; also, the service sector, and new 'sunrise' industries, in a continent STILL primarily driven by agriculture, fishing etc, is a long way off rivalling that of Europe.

LOL you seem to have misread my entire post

 

[Pickman's model]

as someone who has spent many years leaving in central and south America.

 

[coley]

You are not alone paolo999, the vast majority dont know the history of Britain and Ireland, this board is populated by lots of imperialists and colonialists that care nothing for fair play and justice and as long as they are ok then they dont want to know.

Not true at all, when the indigenous population of NI vote for Irish unification then I will be all for it.

 

[trampie]

Not true at all, when the indigenous population of NI vote for Irish unification then I will be all for it.

Who are the indigenous population of NI ?

 

[coley]

Who are the indigenous population of NI ?

The people born there.

 

[1%er]

Who are the indigenous population of NI ?

The Nemedians, Fomorians, Fir Bolg, Tuatha Dé Danann and the Milesians?

 

[trampie]

The people born there.

That is what indigenous means to you does it, so the indigenous population of the USA are not just the native American tribes but every person born in the USA including first generation people whos parents originated from elsewhere, so indigenous is a wasted term when describing peoples origins.

 

[Pickman's model]

The people born there.

would you say that israeli settlers born in the occupied territories - whether the west bank or gaza strip - are indigenous to those territories?

 

[coley]

That is what indigenous means to you does it, so the indigenous population of the USA are not just the native American tribes but every person born in the USA including first generation people whos parents originated from elsewhere, so indigenous is a wasted term when describing peoples origins.

You asked who I thought were the indigenous population not the original population.

 

[coley]

would you say that israeli settlers born in the occupied territories - whether the west bank or gaza strip - are indigenous to those territories?

No, they are clearly children of a of an occupying nation

 

[Spymaster]

You asked who I thought were the indigenous population not the original population.

Indigenous means the original people.

 

[dylanredefined]

Are there ANY significant ocean-going cargo ships registered in the Falklands? I mean, fishing boats, yes, but actual big cargo ships?

I suspect not very many at all, making this even more of an empty, "let's talk tough" gesture.

Giles..

25 fishing boats that can also legitimately fly the British merchant navy flag anyway.Uruguay has to be nice to Argentina for economic reasons.

 

[coley]

Indigenous means the original people.

Aye, if you want to be that literal, but using that criteria, then very few nations are populated by their 'indigenous' populations.

 

[Spymaster]

Aye, if you want to be that literal, but using that criteria, then very few nations are populated by their 'indigenous' populations.

Well yeah. That's kind of the point.

 

[trampie]

The Nemedians, Fomorians, Fir Bolg, Tuatha Dé Danann and the Milesians?

Cuchulain of Muirthemne.

 

[trampie]

Aye, if you want to be that literal, but using that criteria, then very few nations are populated by their 'indigenous' populations.

Colonialists everywhere coley.

 

[coley]

Well yeah. That's kind of the point.

The point being, you have to deploy a measure of common sense, and fairness, when debating the legitimacy of who has the right to occupy territory

 

[coley]

Colonialists everywhere coley.

We are all colonialists in a historical sense

 

[trampie]

The point being, you have to deploy a measure of common sense, and fairness, when debating the legitimacy of who has the right to occupy territory

You dont say.

If a group colonise a land and treat the indigenous population as second class citizens including murder and that group of colonialists then suffer reprisals they act very surprised and shocked, they often call the attacks, terrorists attacks, one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

 

[trampie]

Double post.

 

[coley]

You dont say.

If a group colonise a land and treat the indigenous population as second class citizens including murder and that group of colonialists then suffer reprisals they act very surprised and shocked, they often call the attacks, terrorists attacks, one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter as they say.

And two hundred years later when both occupied and occupiers are intermarried etc how do you regard the few still crying out against the occupation?

 

[trampie]

And two hundred years later when both occupied and occupiers are intermarried etc how do you regard the few still crying out against the occupation?

What level of intermarrying is likely in any given situation ?, it is said that Offas Dyke posed a bigger barrier to Anglo Saxon DNA than the North sea did, is there a lot of intermarrying in the occupied territories in the Holy Lands, birds of a feather and all that perhaps, a term that could be used to describe indigenous people that are still voicing their opinions on any such an occupation after a few centuries is that they are patriots, particularly if they are still being treated unfairly.

 

[coley]

What level of intermarrying is likely in any given situation ?, it is said that Offas Dyke posed a bigger barrier to Anglo Saxon DNA than the North sea did, is there a lot of intermarrying in the occupied territories in the Holy Lands, birds of a feather and all that perhaps, a term that could be used to describe indigenous people that are still voicing their opinions on any such an occupation after a few centuries is that they are patriots, particularly if they are still being treated unfairly.

So, the Scottish nationalists are patriots, then what of the rest of the Scots? quislings? and Wales seems quite happy with the British occupation given the drubbing the Nationalist movement there recieved at the last election.
Just how far back in history do you go before accepting the status quo?