Are we creeping towards being a fascist state?

[jiggajagga]

Over the last two or three weeks I have heard the term "these people" more than I have heard in many a year.
Last week alone benefit so called 'shirkers' were called "these people" by politicians and media and larger people were coined as "these people" who used up services too much as were those in court who were caught up in the recent riots.
Today we have seen the travellers at Dale Farm called "these people".
I think the last time this term was used so much was in the Reich/Mussolini era in regard to Jewish folk,the disabled, etc.

This tory (?) government seems to be jumping on any populist item it can to steer the masses away from the real issues that are befalling us today, blaming others is a well used method in certain circles.
Funny how we never see bankers being called "these people" don't you think?

I fear we may be on a very slippery slope here.

 

[frogwoman]

less democratic? yes. (see some of the posts ive made on the topic)
fascist? no.

 

[butchersapron]

These people have always said these people. They have like.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Anyone who isn't 'them' or 'theirs'

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

No.

 

[butchersapron]

less democratic? yes. (see some of the posts ive made on the topic)
fascist? no.

More democratic in fact. The idiocy is to be implemented by us.

 

[krtek a houby]

I think we're becoming more divided, for sure

 

[Treacle Toes]

less democratic? yes. (see some of the posts ive made on the topic)
fascist? no.

in practice/experience; does less democratic mean/equate to more fascist? Serious question.

 

[frogwoman]

More democratic in fact. The idiocy is to be implemented by us.

as volunteers

 

[weltweit]

your IP address has been logged !

/fatshits state

 

[Treacle Toes]

I think we're becoming more divided, for sure

Time to counter this as you experience it eh?

 

[frogwoman]

in practice/experience; does less democratic mean/equate to more fascist? Serious question.

no, not necessarily.

 

[krtek a houby]

Time to counter this as you experience it eh?

I try to spread the love in my own way, sure. But when faced with so much ugliness, it gets all despairing, doesn't it? Nothing suprises or shocks anymore. And that's bad.

 

[Brainaddict]

I think there are some worrying signs. For instance, not along ago it used to be considered that criminals be punished in proportion to their crime, and that it was the job of the court to set the punishment. What worries me even more than the out-of-all proportion sentences for 'rioting' is the fact that the police and local authorities have decided to add to the punishment set by the courts. The police did it by posting photos, names, addresses online - for me a clear breach of what their role should be (catching the criminals, not punishing them) and local authorities are now trying to do it by threatening residents with eviction - something that can only be threatened against people who don't matter (benefits scroungers etc), so apparently its going to be allowed. The fact that many people no longer understand that it is less oppressive to have a separation of roles between different arms of the state is IMO the scariest thing to emerge from the last few weeks. Well, that and the hatred.

 

[butchersapron]

I think there are some worrying signs. For instance, not along ago it used to be considered that criminals be punished in proportion to their crime, and that it was the job of the court to set the punishment. What worries me even more than the out-of-all proportion sentences for 'rioting' is the fact that the police and local authorities have decided to add to the punishment set by the courts. The police did it by posting photos, names, addresses online - for me a clear breach of what their role should be (catching the criminals, not punishing them) and local authorities are now trying to do it by threatening residents with eviction - something that can only be threatened against people who don't matter (benefits scroungers etc), so apparently its going to be allowed. The fact that many people no longer understand that it is less oppressive to have a separation of roles between different arms of the state is IMO the scariest thing to emerge from the last few weeks.

Are you arguing that this is a sign of incipient fascism? Why isn't it a classic example of state demonstration - it's happened after every riot. Most recently in 2001 - are we any nearer to fascism now?

 

[krtek a houby]

We are edging towards something nasty

 

[ViolentPanda]

Over the last two or three weeks I have heard the term "these people" more than I have heard in many a year.
Last week alone benefit so called 'shirkers' were called "these people" by politicians and media and larger people were coined as "these people" who used up services too much as were those in court who were caught up in the recent riots.
Today we have seen the travellers at Dale Farm called "these people".
I think the last time this term was used so much was in the Reich/Mussolini era in regard to Jewish folk,the disabled, etc.

This tory (?) government seems to be jumping on any populist item it can to steer the masses away from the real issues that are befalling us today, blaming others is a well used method in certain circles.
Funny how we never see bankers being called "these people" don't you think?

I fear we may be on a very slippery slope here.

Because we supposedly operate as a democracy, a "parliamentary democracy" to be precise (whatever the hell that is), and because we have anti-discriminatory laws (which aren't particularly effective or necessarily designed to be particularly effective) then at face value, then of course we're not approaching being a fascist state.

Do we have manifestations of state-generated aggression towards certain sectors of society, aggression mediated by capital, and the promotion of a divisive intolerance that serves the purposes of the state well, but serves the people not at all (although some people don't appear to realise this, and lap the hate up like kitties lap cream)?
We do, as well as an advance in speed of the creeping authoritariansim manifested by "new Labour", the previous bunch of neo-liberal stooges. differentially against society. So, the wealthier you are, the less authoritarianism affects you. The poorer, the more harshly it affects you.

 

[butchersapron]

No we're not creeping towards a fascist state. A fascist state involves a whole range of things that we are a million miles from (it means the total dissoluution of all parties seen as harmful to the national community, the legal and physical smashing of unions, the stopping off all media except govt regulated outlets, the re-organisation of the education system to support the ideology of the leading party, the re-organsiation of the military and so on) It doesn't just mean bad things. Bad things come with the state, it's normal - it's part of the deal. Calm down.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think we're becoming more divided, for sure

I don't know about "becoming". To my thinking, the divisions have been widening solidly for about 30 years now, we've merely reached the moment where the divisions and their effects have become too obvious to ignore, so the excuses and lies that power makes in order to transfer blame from itself have gone into overdrive.

 

[ViolentPanda]

in practice/experience; does less democratic mean/equate to more fascist? Serious question.

The "repeal" of democracy is a significator of fascism, but it's a significator of any sort of dictatorial set-up.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think there are some worrying signs. For instance, not along ago it used to be considered that criminals be punished in proportion to their crime, and that it was the job of the court to set the punishment. What worries me even more than the out-of-all proportion sentences for 'rioting' is the fact that the police and local authorities have decided to add to the punishment set by the courts. The police did it by posting photos, names, addresses online - for me a clear breach of what their role should be (catching the criminals, not punishing them) and local authorities are now trying to do it by threatening residents with eviction - something that can only be threatened against people who don't matter (benefits scroungers etc), so apparently its going to be allowed. The fact that many people no longer understand that it is less oppressive to have a separation of roles between different arms of the state is IMO the scariest thing to emerge from the last few weeks. Well, that and the hatred.

That's not fascism, though, that's common-or-garden authoritarian politics, and in both the cases you mentioned, there are (currently) legal safeguards to prevent those things happening, and to hold to account those that try to circumvent or ignore the safeguards.
A fascism isn't as useful for capital as the current state of affairs, whereas the current state of affairs overlaid with a progressively stricter authoritarianism brought to bear against those who consume least has more utility.

 

[love detective]

fascism seems to equate to anything bad these days

we're all fascists now

 

[ViolentPanda]

We are edging towards something nasty

"Edging"? I suspect, given the current economic climate and Cameron's adherence to Osbourne's cuts strategy, that we're running full tilt toward "something nasty".

 

[butchersapron]

We're in something nasty mate, i think democracy is that nasty though. Democracy is no-liberliasm.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Not really going towards fascist in the classic sense, there are some disturbing trends in civil liberties but the bigger worry for me is the economic screwing of the poor and middle class into the ground with the middle class being encouraged to blame the poor ("these people")

 

[Brainaddict]

That's not fascism, though, that's common-or-garden authoritarian politics, and in both the cases you mentioned, there are (currently) legal safeguards to prevent those things happening, and to hold to account those that try to circumvent or ignore the safeguards.
A fascism isn't as useful for capital as the current state of affairs, whereas the current state of affairs overlaid with a progressively stricter authoritarianism brought to bear against those who consume least has more utility.

Oh I kind of agree that using the word fascism isn't as useful as sticking to a more factual description of what is going on right now. The fact that things are going in a more authoritarian direction is interesting though - interesting for the fact that most people don't seem to mind, so you wonder how far they can push it....

I rather hoped the police could be legally challenged on putting those pics up - do you know if anyone is doing it yet?

 

[butchersapron]

Oh I kind of agree that using the word fascism isn't as useful as sticking to a more factual description of what is going on right now. The fact that things are going in a more authoritarian direction is interesting though - interesting for the fact that most people don't seem to mind, so you wonder how far they can push it....

Well, this isn't interesting - as it's not been demonstrated, It's just another of your lazy assumptions that won't be followed up, won't be argued, won't be discussed...won't it?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Oh I kind of agree that using the word fascism isn't as useful as sticking to a more factual description of what is going on right now. The fact that things are going in a more authoritarian direction is interesting though - interesting for the fact that most people don't seem to mind, so you wonder how far they can push it....

Well, that's not really a fact, that's your opinion. I'd say that even if "most" people" seem not to mind, many of them do. The problem lies in the fact that many of the traditional solidaristic mechanisms where groups of people with the same concerns could have made their disquiet known, no longer exist, and those that do don't work too well.

I rather hoped the police could be legally challenged on putting those pics up - do you know if anyone is doing it yet?

They were forced to withdraw them within hours of putting them up, and I believe Liberty has reported the police to the DP commissioner.

 

[krtek a houby]

"Edging"? I suspect, given the current economic climate and Cameron's adherence to Osbourne's cuts strategy, that we're running full tilt toward "something nasty".

Should we do something?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Should we do something?

Whatever we can.
The problem for "us", i.e. "the people" is that because we have little recourse to making ourselves heard, then often what we do is invisible, unseen and unheard, or just plain ignored. It's dissapointing, because there are so many little ways that don't get considered, stuff that isn't illegal, but would be irritating, stuff like mass phone-ins to switchboards of the Houses of Parliament, Portcullis House and Whitehall departments at specific times, mass mail-ins from constituents to MPs. "Spontaneous" gatherings outside of constituency surgeries. Disruption with a message - "sod your neo-liberalism. You represent us. Do so or reap the consequences".

Problem being that we're currently at a stage were more people care about staying under the radar than care about resisting. I suspect that's going to start changing around the time this quarter's financial results are published and the next wave of public sector staffing cuts are activated.