Arbeit Macht Frei: Appeal And Your Benefits Could Be Stopped!

[Jackobi]

Whilst appealing Employment and Support Allowance on ground of incapacity for work you can conitnue to recieve ESA at the assesmnet rate

Which is where the difference to current policy is, the claimant would be considered fit to work and shunted on to JSA until the outcome of the appeal is determined.

It's all very well saying claim JSA, but that has its own workseeking requirement that many disabled people won't be able to meet or by doing so it seriously going to affect there health.

I realise that, but the insinuation is that all benefits will be stopped until the appeal process is finished, which is not the case.

 

[Meltingpot]

Personal experience in dealing with welfare claimants. What's your experience of the welfare system, apart from poncing from it?

One of my classmates and my dad's fiancee's daughter worked for the local DHSS (as it then was). Don't believe everything you read in the tabloids, most people on benefits have no other options.

 

[stethoscope]

Personal experience in dealing with welfare claimants.

You work for royalty?

 

[goldenecitrone]

Personal experience in dealing with welfare claimants. What's your experience of the welfare system, apart from poncing from it?

Ian Duncan Smith has left the building.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

It was Right Mind/Steady Eddy/Hustings back again, oddly enough.

 

[Meltingpot]

And anyone who actually thinks that sitting in an unheated house in November with a coat on and a rug on their knee is a "choice" is too far gone to be worth discussing these matters with.

 

[stethoscope]

It was Right Mind/Steady Eddy/Hustings back again, oddly enough.

I thank you *curtseys*

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...t-the-working-man.282915/page-2#post-10565163

 

[free spirit]

Such a system should be rolled out across the entire welfare state. Given that most “disabled” people are nothing of the sort, a lot are just fat and/or lazy, all hard working people should welcome this, especially given this alarming fact: that the government spends more in welfare benefits that it collects in income tax, so here we have for the most part the hardworking supporting the idle.
What’s more if these people are genuinely disabled they will have no issue going through the tests.
Oh, and those found to be on the hey-diddle-diddle should be made to pay it all back plus the cost of their apprehension.

disgraceful state of affairs isn't it.

This is why this government's policy of forcing the country away from economic recovery into a decade long jobless depression is so utterly wrong. Government policy should be about growing the economy in order to create jobs, so that we don't end up with a lost generation of people who've never had the opportunity to work, and actually get ourselves out of the cycle of increasing debt / counterproductive austerity measures.

 

[captainmission]

I realise that, but the insinuation is that all benefits will be cut until the appeal process is finished, which is not the case.

although receiving no money other than housing beenfit will be the practical reality for a sizeable number of disabled people as they won't be able to meet the requirements for JSA

 

[Glitter]

This is how I think they'll try and spin this idea to try and get it through:

1. It'll mean that the number of people filing appeals will drop through the floor, which will save a great deal of money in benefit claims and backdated payments.

2. The ConDems will then say that the fall in appeals is proof that benefit 'reform' is working.

3. If pressed about the effect it has on claimants they'll say 'But there's still a proper appeals procedure' while not mentioning that actually trying to use it will leave a claimant destitute and probably homeless if their Housing Benefit is suspended as well.

This is what I think this idea would actually result in:

1. Large increases in the homeless figures.

2. An increase in the number of suicides among the sick and disabled.

3. An increase in petty crime as people forced to do whatever they have to to survive at all resort to criminal means because they have no other means by which to exist any more.

4. A matching increase in the prison population and those who have led previously blameless lives finding themselves forever tarred with the brush of being crooks when they only broke the law because the system left them with no other choice.

5. They'll make a claim to JSA and therefore be vulnerable to sanctions for not looking for work.

 

[Glitter]

The appeal would be against ESA being withdrawn, hence the claimant would receive JSA whilst the appeal was considered.

Appeal against ESA and you are entitled to ESA until the appeal comes in.

Not many people know that.

 

[Glitter]

I am an idiot, and a troll.

Couldn't agree more..

 

[Jackobi]

Appeal against ESA and you are entitled to ESA until the appeal comes in.

Not many people know that.

That is what the article in the OP is referring to, withdrawing the right to receive ESA until the appeal is finalised, therefore having to claim JSA, and if successful in appealing, receiving a backdated ESA claim.

 

[sheothebudworths]

But you *wouldn't* receive JSA if you were unable to fulfil the obligations of the job seekers agreement which is an absolute requirement (and if you were able, you'd obviously lose the appeal on the grounds that you were, too)....so to all intents and purposes, you would effectively be without any income at all (unless you were able to claim hardship payments).

 

[purenarcotic]

JSA is really paltry amount of money to live on. Not that I'm saying living on disability benefits is much better (I don't know tbh) but I assume included within those benefits are the increased costs of living that disability incurs. You wouldn't get that on JSA so having to claim JSA while waiting on appeal would dramatically reduce your quality of life.

It's yet another example of the Tories going after the needy and vulnerable while buttering up the ultra rich.

 

[Bakunin]

(unless you were able to claim hardship payments).

If by hardship payments you include Crisis Loans then you may not even be able to claim those. The rule on Crisis Loans now is that once you've claimed three you can't apply for another for one calendar year after your third one.

 

[Meltingpot]

But you *wouldn't* receive JSA if you were unable to fulfil the obligations of the job seekers agreement which is an absolute requirement (and if you were able, you'd obviously lose the appeal on the grounds that you were, too)....so to all intents and purposes, you would effectively be without any income at all (unless you were able to claim hardship payments).

Exactly. You have to be unable to work to claim ESA, and hence unable to claim JSA (which assumes the ability to work) either.

 

[purenarcotic]

If by hardship payments you include Crisis Loans then you may not even be able to claim those. The rule on Crisis Loans now is that once you've claimed three you can't apply for another for one calendar year after your third one.

As I understand it are there also not quite a few conditions you need to meet in order to get one? Such as having children etc, or is anybody who really needs it eligible?

 

[Bakunin]

As I understand it are there also not quite a few conditions you need to meet in order to get one? Such as having children etc, or is anybody who really needs it eligible?

I've never been refused one, but they certainly made them a great deal harder to get in recent years. It used to be that you could get one reasonably easily and they weren't officially limited either. Now they're a lot harder to qualify for and there's the three loans rule as well.

 

[Meltingpot]

As I understand it are there also not quite a few conditions you need to meet in order to get one? Such as having children etc, or is anybody who really needs it eligible?

And the patience to be able to wait for more than 20 minutes trying to get through to a permanently engaged line. I'm afraid I gave up

 

[scifisam]

Ideologically, it's a good incentive to find work.

As I understand it, not all benefits will be cut off completely. The Incapacity Benefit element will be stopped whilst an appeal is in process. The claimant should still receive all other benefit entitlements, typically Job Seekers Allowance, Council Tax Benefit and Housing Benefit.

It is still a shit policy, but I think the details are important in order to protest against it.

HB/CTB is dependent on you proving you need it, ergo if your ESA is withdrawn you will need to reapply, and not have HB/CTB in the meantime.

And you really don't seem to understand what ESA is for - it's for people who can't work.

 

[past caring]

But you *wouldn't* receive JSA if you were unable to fulfil the obligations of the job seekers agreement which is an absolute requirement (and if you were able, you'd obviously lose the appeal on the grounds that you were, too)....so to all intents and purposes, you would effectively be without any income at all (unless you were able to claim hardship payments).

You are wrong.

Before the introduction of ESA, those who appealed a decision that they were capable of work under the old Incapacity Benefit/Income Support on the basis of incapacity regime could continue to receive IS - but with a 20% reduction in the standard amount - until the appeal was decided or they could claim JSA but without any reduction. Choosing the latter option in no way influenced (or can influence) the outcome of the appeal. This will be the same with the changes proposed with ESA - these are bad enough without people scare-mongering on the basis of ill-informed supposition.

 

[purenarcotic]

And the patience to be able to wait for more than 20 minutes trying to get through to a permanently engaged line. I'm afraid I gave up

I don't blame you, that's an awfully long wait.

 

[sheothebudworths]

@ past caring
Ah well apologies - that certainly wasn't my intention and I'm obviously glad that that's not the case (and know you're certainly better placed than me to know) - but I genuinely don't understand HOW?

Are the usual terms of JSA effectively just *overlooked* in those circumstances then (when you're not 'available for work')?

 

[past caring]

HB/CTB is dependent on you proving you need it, ergo if your ESA is withdrawn you will need to reapply, and not have HB/CTB in the meantime.

This isn't right either.

At worst your claim should be suspended whilst the local authority assess your ongoing entitlement. They will only have been made aware by the DWP that ESA - or any other passporting benefit such as IS or JSA - has stopped, but notthe reason for its stopping. So for all they know, this could be because you've gone back to work. So yes, you will need to show that you remain entitled, but this shouldn't take a new claim - a simple confirmation that you have appealed and have no other income (or have JSA) in the meantime is enough.

 

[Meltingpot]

I don't blame you, that's an awfully long wait.

Yeah, I think I was unlucky in that my crisis happened 2 weeks before Christmas. I'm sure that the Christmas period (and maybe the time straight after Christmas) is the worst time for people needing money to tide them over.

 

[Jackobi]

But you *wouldn't* receive JSA if you were unable to fulfil the obligations of the job seekers agreement which is an absolute requirement

That is true. Which is why the reforms will affect a lot of ESA claimants, even more so if this policy is introduced. I was trying to clarify the issue, not condone it.

 

[Glitter]

That is what the article in the OP is referring to, withdrawing the right to receive ESA until the appeal is finalised, therefore having to claim JSA, and if successful in appealing, receiving a backdated ESA claim.

If someone is on ESA and gets disallowed by ATOS they have the right to appeal and receive ESA

 

[past caring]

@ past caring
Ah well apologies - that certainly wasn't my intention and I'm obviously glad that that's not the case (and know you're certainly better placed than me to know) - but I genuinely don't understand HOW?

Are the usual terms of JSA effectively just *overlooked* in those circumstances then (when you're not 'available for work')?

It's one of those curiosities of how the law (and particularly social security law in the UK) works.

Entitlement to benefits depends on a decision made by a Decision Maker. It is the last or most recent decision which is the effective or operative decision. So if a DM for your ESA claim decides you are capable of work then a DM for JSA must accept this decision and award JSA even if you have appealed the ESA decision - so long as you are prepared to jump through the hoops of signing on and don't go into the jobcentre and mug yourself off by saying you are too unwell to work.

 

[Meltingpot]

You are wrong.

Before the introduction of ESA, those who appealed a decision that they were capable of work under the old Incapacity Benefit/Income Support on the basis of incapacity regime could continue to receive IS - but with a 20% reduction in the standard amount - until the appeal was decided or they could claim JSA but without any reduction. Choosing the latter option in no way influenced (or can influence) the outcome of the appeal. This will be the same with the changes proposed with ESA - these are bad enough without people scare-mongering on the basis of ill-informed supposition.

In that case, I stand corrected too. I assumed it was an either-or. I'm well aware from the help you've given me in the past that you know your stuff