...and Yemen!

[GroovySunday]

I think we would have, if probably via a different route.

Well clearly you're the specialist authority who knows it all

 

[Sasaferrato]

see post 1194

Not an answer.

In what way should Israel have responded to the Hamas attack on the 7th of October, is the question that no one seems to want to answer.

 

[Sasaferrato]

I already did - maybe you have me on ignore? The answer is simple: US and their lapdogs stop backing the genocide - in fact they have the power not just to stop backing it but to actually stop it completely. Not only stops attacks in the red sea and the escalation to a wider war but also stops a genocide.

Again, not an answer.

We know the background, it doesn't need repeating.

 

[teqniq]

Not an answer.

In what way should Israel have responded to the Hamas attack on the 7th of October, is the question that no one seems to want to answer.

Not the answer you want to hear, you mean.

 

[teqniq]

Again, not an answer.

We know the background, it doesn't need repeating.

See above.

 

[klang]

Well clearly you're the specialist authority who knows it all

I'm not and i don't.
Equally I'm not here to dismiss or score points.
But i do have an opinion.

 

[klang]

Current events don't come out of nowhere. There is a complex history attached to it which is worth looking into.

 

[Pickman's model]

Not an answer.

In what way should Israel have responded to the Hamas attack on the 7th of October, is the question that no one seems to want to answer.

yes i have answered you. i have supplied an answer. you may be unhappy with the response but it's rather rich you saying no one has engaged with your question

 

[YouSir]

On a side note - it's really hard to discern what Yemen can actually do. Is there any actually coherent source on their capabilities when it comes to further disrupting shipping while being the focus of concerted attacks from the US? I know they endured Saudi bombing for years but how that translates to this moment I don't know. All I've seen so far is hype from all sides which seems to be more narrative wish fulfilment than anything else.

 

[Sasaferrato]

There is a huge amount of anti-Israeli sentiment on this and other threads.

What there isn't is a straight answer to a straight question, i.e. 'How should Israel have responded'.

The naked hate of of Israel has generated some rather loathsome hypocrisy. It is obvious that Israel had to respond to the attack, but no one on here will acknowledge that because to do so is an admission that Israel had to respond.

Do I think the response is proportionate? No, I don't, but what I do know is that the current carnage is a direct result of the Hamas attack, and also that the brief ceases fire was broken by Hamas, not Israel.

I think a few people really need to take a long hard look at their moral compass and conscience, to refuse to acknowledge that Israel could not just accept the attack without response is risible.

 

[Sasaferrato]

yes i have answered you. i have supplied an answer. you may be unhappy with the response but it's rather rich you saying no one has engaged with your question

Engagement and an answer are not the same things, and THERE HAS BEEN NO ANSWER.

 

[teqniq]

The record is stuck.

 

[Sasaferrato]

The record is stuck.

As is the refusal of everyone to answer a question.

 

[klang]

On a side note - it's really hard to discern what Yemen can actually do. Is there any actually coherent source on their capabilities when it comes to further disrupting shipping while being the focus of concerted attacks from the US? I know they endured Saudi bombing for years but how that translates to this moment I don't know. All I've seen so far is hype from all sides which seems to be more narrative wish fulfilment than anything else.

I think the houthis are well capable of a sea-based guerilla campaign, with or without support of other powers (eg iran)...
They have man power, are battle trained, determined, and have great local geographical knowledge.
It can almost ve compared to the very flexible hit-and-run piracy campaign off the coast of the horn.

Bombing yemens remaining infrastructure and drawing us / uk into a land-based war won't make a difference to their determination. They have come too far, with too much success.

The red sea is one of the most important yet vulnerable shipping lanes in the world.

 

[YouSir]

There is a huge amount of anti-Israeli sentiment on this and other threads.

What there isn't is a straight answer to a straight question, i.e. 'How should Israel have responded'.

The naked hate of of Israel has generated some rather loathsome hypocrisy. It is obvious that Israel had to respond to the attack, but no one on here will acknowledge that because to do so is an admission that Israel had to respond.

Do I think the response is proportionate? No, I don't, but what I do know is that the current carnage is a direct result of the Hamas attack, and also that the brief ceases fire was broken by Hamas, not Israel.

I think a few people really need to take a long hard look at their moral compass and conscience, to refuse to acknowledge that Israel could not just accept the attack without response is risible.

Israel absolutely had to respond, practically speaking. For an occupying apartheid power to exist they have to excersize violent force to maintain their hegemony. To make that a moral validation of military action though requires an absolute rejection of any contemporary or historical context, which appears to be what you want to do. Otherwise you could say exactly the same to justify Hamas - Palestinians have been subject to outrageous injustices from the Israeli state, practically the use of violent force through the only means practically available to them makes absolute sense. From moment to moment every act of violence can be justfied as practical necessity, which leads down an entirely pointless path of escalation. What seems to be frustrating you is that the people replying don't view that as a satisfactory or productive process to indulge in, so they point to wider changes Israel can make (because Palestine has no capacity to do so) which would break that cycle of violence.

 

[teqniq]

As is the refusal of everyone to answer a question.

It. Has. Been. Answered. More than once, you just don't like the answers that have been provided. So not satisfied with the answers you got on the Hamas/Gaza thread you've bought it here.

 

[klang]

it's really hard to discern what Yemen can actually do.

Also, being flippant and by no means directed at you: this is not yemen but the houthis. The fact that they are the de-facto rulers of yemen atm doesn't mean that they are enjoying wide-spread popular support, nor can they sanction actions in the name of the yemeni people.
Too diverse is the country, and too hungry for peace and justice is the majority of its people.

 

[PTK]

What choice do they have? Those shipping routes being disrupted will cause massive pain for poor people around the world.

The choice that the UK and the USA have is to cease giving diplomatic and military support to the violation of international humanitarian law that is taking place in the Gaza Strip. The USA could stop the State of Israel tomorrow, if it chose to do so. Then the Yemenis would stop attacking shipping in the Red Sea. If there was a choice between a little inflation of prices in the UK and ending mass murder in the Gaza Strip, then I would choose inflation.

 

[teqniq]

Ships transponders now broadcasting no connection to Israel, even the ship off the West coast of Africa which is actually nowhere near Yemen:

 

[PTK]

I've heard that one before. In this case though it's weapons of mild destruction.

How do we know that crafty Yemenis are not hiding small drones in schools?

 

[PTK]

Apparently various cities in Yemen are being bombed. And we should be clear that the Houthis are in the right and the US is in the wrong and are breaking international law. Infact the Houthis are the ones trying to uphold international law. They are just doing what they can in response to the genocide in Gaza and desperately trying to get the US to pressure Israel to stop. In response to that it looks like Biden has decided to go ahead and green light an illegal war.

What are the Houthis supposed to do? Just sit back and do nothing while Israel continues massacres of civilians, including 12,000 kids?

Well put.

 

[PTK]

From Amnesty International


"The Huthi de facto authorities continued to impose their mahram (male guardian) requirement, which bans women from travelling without a male guardian or evidence of their written approval, across governorates under Huthi control or to other areas of Yemen. From April, tightened Huthi restrictions increasingly hindered Yemeni women from working, especially those required to travel for their job.7 This had a direct impact on the access of Yemeni women and girls to healthcare and reproductive health rights as Yemeni women humanitarian workers increasingly struggled to conduct fieldwork in Huthi-controlled areas and were forced to cancel field visits and aid deliveries."

"Huthi de facto authorities raided at least six radio stations in Sana’a and shut them down. The owner of Sawt al-Yemen radio station appealed against the closure before the Journalism and Publishing Court in Sana’a and obtained a court order in July in favour of reopening the station. On 11 July, however, security forces raided and shut down the station again and confiscated its broadcasting devices.

The Huthi de facto authorities continued to imprison at least eight journalists, four of them on death row, following a grossly unfair trial in 2020. From May onwards, the appeal court in Sana’a repeatedly adjourned the appeal hearing of the four journalists on death row, Akram Al-Walidi, Abdelkhaleq Amran, Hareth Hamid and Tawfiq Al-Mansouri.2 In July, Tawfiq al-Mansouri was denied urgent medical treatment despite his critical health condition."

What has that got to do with the fact that the UK is bombing Yemen? I am sure that the oppeessed women of Yemen do not want to be bombed.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Israel absolutely had to respond, practically speaking. For an occupying apartheid power to exist they have to excersize violent force to maintain their hegemony. To make that a moral validation of military action though requires an absolute rejection of any contemporary or historical context, which appears to be what you want to do. Otherwise you could say exactly the same to justify Hamas - Palestinians have been subject to outrageous injustices from the Israeli state, practically the use of violent force through the only means practically available to them makes absolute sense. From moment to moment every act of violence can be justfied as practical necessity, which leads down an entirely pointless path of escalation. What seems to be frustrating you is that the people replying don't view that as a satisfactory or productive process to indulge in, so they point to wider changes Israel can make (because Palestine has no capacity to do so) which would break that cycle of violence.

Thank you. At last, an answer.

What you say is absolutely correct.

Israel needs to completely withdraw from Gaza, facilitate the passage of aid supplies and also contribute on a massive scale towards the rebuilding of what is currently a wasteland. Perhaps the USA could divert funds from military aid to Israel to aid to Gaza.

Hamas and Israel both need to commit to an immediate and lasting ceasefire.

There is of course also the West Bank, not so intensively reported but no less of a tragedy.

 

[PTK]

From Human Rights Watch

"Houthi rockets, indiscriminate artillery attacks, and use of landmines have caused thousands of child casualties. The Houthis have attacked scores of schools and hospitals, used schools for military purposes, and blocked humanitarian assistance.

The Houthis have also recruited thousands of children as soldiers and sent them into battle. Child recruitment, especially by the Houthis, comprised the largest share of cases that the Justice4Yemen Pact verified in 2023. This is despite an action plan that the Houthis signed with the United Nations in April 2022 in which they pledged to end recruitment and use of children as soldiers, killing and maiming of children, and attacks against schools and hospital"s.

You are a propagandist for war.

 

[tommers]

As is the refusal of everyone to answer a question.

What do you think they should have done Sas?

 

[klang]

What has that got to do with the fact that the UK is bombing Yemen? I am sure that the oppeessed women of Yemen do not want to be bombed.

The discussion was about whether the houthi campaign should be supported wrt to israel.

I don't think it should be.

 

[teqniq]

You are a propagandist for war.

No, they're just pointing out that the Houthis are not angels, far from it. If you look way, way back in the thread you will find a lot more information about them and most of it is not good.

 

[Raheem]

What there isn't is a straight answer to a straight question, i.e. 'How should Israel have responded'.

In any way at all they might have chosen to, within the bounds of international law and human decency. If that would have left them with limited options, then they would have had limited options.

 

[PTK]

To expand on this, GroovySunday -

Yemen is not just a nation of houthis, al qaida fighters and tribal savages.
It is also a nation of conscious proletarians, academics, historians, artists, musicians, lefties, scholars, activists, feminists, class warriors, ordinary people, and so on and so on....
It has a rich and colourful history of democracy, marxism, culuture, class struggles, autonomous thinking and questioning western imperialism and the status quo from a class-based angle.

These people have not disappeared and have not been muted by an ongoing war, starvation and distraction.

The rise of the houthis is a direct result of western policy to shape the middle east over the past few decades.

The crushing of the arab spring and therefor destrucing any meaningful progress in yemen was supported by all players, including saleh, iran, usa, houthis, islamists, etc etc.

If we want yemen to meddle in international politics and to take action against an ongoing genocide we must support the people who have been fighting and speaking out against capitalism and imperialism. These people exist in yemen.

To say 'at least the houthis are doing something' misses the point and can bare devastating consequences.

It also dismisses and silences the people who have been fighting for meaningful progress under the most dire circumstances

Well said. Yes, people do not realise that Yemen has a strong left-wing history, that a left-wing national liberation movement, the NLF, fought British colonial forces and forced the UK to withdraw without even signing a disengagement agreement.

 

[klang]

Well said. Yes, people do not realise that Yemen has a strong left-wing history, that a left-wing national liberation movement, the NLF, fought British colonial forces and forced the UK to withdraw without even signing a disengagement agreement.

Which western powers, iran, saudi arabia, saleh, as well as the houthis and other islamists have been trying to systematically destroy for decades, but it still exists.
I can not support the houthi campaign because of this.