No. Assad is no angel protecting minorities. He's a butcher protecting his dictatorship. He started the violence. In my view the West has shamefully stood by for 2 years while he slaughtered his people. During this time jihadists saw their chance & infiltrated into Syria, many supported by Saudi. This has been turning a legitimate uprising into an ethnic/religious conflict with rebel groups now fighting each other as well as Assad. I think this could have been avoided early on by a Libya type operation by NATO/EU. Probably too late for that now.
And next, Syria?
- Thread starter Idris2002
- Start date
not-bono-ever
meh
so, looks like teh brits are getting involved now
"here will be more supplies of "non-lethal equipment" for Syrian rebels from the UK, Mr Hague says. The government is working on what would be most effective, but this will probably include four-wheel-drive vehicles, "personal protection equipment, including body armour", and technology to assist with evidence gathering in the "horrific" event of a chemical weapons attack."
there was also some mention of Jihadists....here we go
"here will be more supplies of "non-lethal equipment" for Syrian rebels from the UK, Mr Hague says. The government is working on what would be most effective, but this will probably include four-wheel-drive vehicles, "personal protection equipment, including body armour", and technology to assist with evidence gathering in the "horrific" event of a chemical weapons attack."
there was also some mention of Jihadists....here we go
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
i think the 5.56 going into a tank story is bollocks (well, i know it is), but i have seen a homemade armoured vehicle fall apart when hit - there wasn't any penetration, but the shock of the impact broke the welds holding the improvised armour together.
30mm was the catalyst, second round made something of a mess of what was left.
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
jihadists in Syria is hardly an invention in the febrile mind of the FCO. delicate balancing act required here i fear - help get rid of Assad (if only because this won't end without his departure) without helping the various nasty groups which appear to be the only military effective anti-Assad force, but don't not help them to the degree that when they eventually become the Syrian government they hold a grudge.
King Soloman* to the FCO, King Soloman to the FCO - thank you.
*ammusingly inappropriate cultural reference.
Mr.Bishie
pickled egg
Hague's just been on the news, saying that they can't stand & watch the atrocities any longer, so will send vehicles, ppe etc, & is not ruling out further intervention.
Is this the same Hague, the same cunt that late last year stood by & watched the Israeli bombardment of Gaza, & supported Israel's every fucking move?
Why step in now? What's in it for the British Gov?
not-bono-ever
meh
Ask yourself who in the region is supporting Assad, add into the mix their favoured brand of islam, look at the construct of the other players in the area and you should be able to piece it together
eta this is a bit cynical, but you get my drift innit
goldenecitrone
post tenebras lux
The sooner Assad is strung up with piano wire, or has his brains blown out, the better.
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
i share the sentiment, but actually the best result would be for him and his family to retire with a wedge of cash to some discrete part of the world as part of an agreed transition - if he gets strung up, in the way he so richly deserves, all thats been achieved is that the next dictator with popularity problem sees that the only decent outcome for himself and his family is through the profligate use of every weapon to hand in order to fend off the revolution/insurgency.
what the world needs is a retirement plan for dictators, somewhere pleasant they can live out their lives in comfort and security so that when things get a bit sporty at home, they can just fuck off sharpish before anyone gets killed.
it lacks natural justice, and it leaves a bitter taste in the mouth - but with a million refugees, 60,000+ dead, and two years of full on civil war having wrecked the place, a bitter taste might well have been a better option for Syria.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
its called the Hague
coley
Well-Known Member
I would have agreed with you if he had been willing to buggier off before "60' 000 dead" but he's an out and out war criminal now and has to be dealt with as such.
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
again, agree with the sentiment, but whats better: 60,000 dead and no justice, or 90,000 with some justice, even if its just shot dead in a ditch?
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
i agree entirely, we're long past that point - but we can be blamed, and given that the likely outcome of this is going to a fractious government dominated by Jihadist groups who will control Syria's Chemical Weapons and their associated delivery systems, i would suggest that being blamed might not be such a good thing.
coley
Well-Known Member
Given that scenario,than we should be getting ready to intervene in Pakistan and N Korea and any other dodgy regime with WMD capability, lets not forget Iran? While I agree it's hard to do nuffin that's our only real option.
The opportunity to act decisively in these situations is always blocked by China and Russia using their security council veto and dithering and acting in a piecemeal fashion aids no one
The opportunity to act decisively in these situations is always blocked by China and Russia using their security council veto and dithering and acting in a piecemeal fashion aids no one
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
i would rather hope we are - however given our lack of long range, time sensitive and independent deep strike capability, i fear that our only options live in Submarines and land at 20,000 miles an hour.
i would agree that there are no 'good' options, all produce little and risk much - including doing nothing. the choices available are merely down to which unpleasent outcome and associated risk package do we choose?
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
if you believe that no one in Syria blames the west for allowing this to continue - or, at least, for not intervening - or that many in Libya don't hold a grudge against those countries which did not intervene (like Germany, for example), then you are missinformed.
shit, you can go to places in Bosnia where you will find real, burning resentment and hatred towards Europe for fiddling at the edges while they burned - and that was 20 years ago, and without the help of some deeply unpleasent groups who were more than happy to stir up the bowl of resentment for their own ends.
doing nothing is an option with its own downsides.
sunny jim
A pikey fluffy type
Has anybody put any thought about who is going to run Syria afterwards? Or is it going to be Libya mark 2 with different factions of Jihadists, sectarianists and criminal gangs all involved in a civil war involving Shia, Kurds etc? Or like Libya it'll become a base for Al Qaeda under Sharia law?
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
i think the fact that the likely options for a post-Assad Syria are so grim is the reason why no one is queing up to give much in the way of assistance to the various groups. i think if were lucky Syria will be a coherant, single government state thats pretty repressive towards the various ethnic and cultural/religious minorities and women, and very heavily influenced by Saudi Arabia. if we're less lucky - and more realistic - it will be a multi-centred, deeply tense if not actually warring, collection of feifdoms that are pretty repressive towards the various ethnic and religious minorities and women, and heavily influenced by various factions within Saudi Arabia.
it is of course quite possible that it'll be worse than that, with some parts run by Saudi proxies, and others run by AQ proxies. which will be nice...
If we do intervene, whichever faction we DON'T back will hate us all the more though. Plus, as a "bonus" we get to waste millions of pounds that we've added to the squillions we are borrowing from our own children in terms of future debt servicing already. And perhaps a few dozen / hundred / thousand of our troops / advisors / whatever may get killed or maimed by landmines and IEDs. And Syria will still end up a shithole full of assorted groups of loons with guns and beards trying to impose their nasty rule on their rivals.
Most Brits will not ever desire to go to Bosnia, or Syria, and they don't have anything we really need, so who cares if they don't like us?
Cheaper and better to stay the f*** out of someone else's mess for a change!
Giles..
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
its nothing they can't get elsewhere - if the Saudi's are bankrolling them they can buy whatever they like. this is a political sop to try and build 'relationships' for the post-Assad world, and is probably being steered towards the less (relatively speaking) offensive groups to give them a bigger say at the 'what happens now?' table.
its also worth noting the history of communications gear supplied to 'friendly parties' by the UK since World War 2...
coley
Well-Known Member
Did he not send them a "strongly worded protest"? Suggest he limits himself to same for this businesss
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
unfortunately the savages on the periphery of the civilised world have discovered a thing called 'air travel', and just as bad, 'the internet'.
theres a very brave woman on this site who could show you the consequences of people in far away shitholes you couldn't find on a map having access to air travel and the internet. and they weren't nice.
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
i had seen something which suggested they were talking about the Ford pick-ups and the VIP wagons they flog-off through the disposals process, but other stuff suggests it could be regionally produced stuff. probably important to point out that we're not talking about 'Armoured Vehicles' as you or i would understand the term, but 'ballistically protected' vehicles to cope with 7.62 level fire - we are not sending Warrior, Chally 2 or Mastiff to the Damascas branch of Hertz.
likesfish
You can't park here sir
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxon_(vehicle)
Send them these although that would be really cruel.
It was so shit when the serbs looted one they were asked if they wanted anymore.
Fine as a pig replacement unfortunatly it was used as a proper apc so an utter disaster.
Send them these although that would be really cruel.
It was so shit when the serbs looted one they were asked if they wanted anymore.
Fine as a pig replacement unfortunatly it was used as a proper apc so an utter disaster.
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