And next, Syria?

[Riklet]

This simplistic sectarian crap is the sort of narrative islamists and extremists have been trying (and maybe succeeding) to stir up and create. a fresh opportunity to fit reality to their own cosy prejudices.

as ever, it's not that simple is it, although i'm sure polarisation is starting to occur in some areas. when your family's been blown to pieces then i guess it feels easier to pick a side.

but if we're doing binary bad-governments vs good governments maybe what's needed is an international "friends of Assad" brigade? lol.....

 

[likesfish]

Tryant decides to fight to the death rather than

 

[camouflage]

This simplistic sectarian crap is the sort of narrative islamists and extremists have been trying (and maybe succeeding) to stir up and create. a fresh opportunity to fit reality to their own cosy prejudices.

Divide & Conquor, this sectarian stuff is played up along the lines of the Iraqi-occupation model, strong voodoo for taking down another nations sovereignty. I reckon the vid I posted is spot on, the militarization of the conflict ultimately ensures the Wests worst fear for Syria (and the region as a whole) does not come to pass; the peaceful overthrow of Assad and the start of a real actual sovereign democracy there. Better a sectarian-riddled godder-fucked war-zone than a unified and independant state.

 

[Knotted]

Divide & Conquor, this sectarian stuff is played up along the lines of the Iraqi-occupation model, strong voodoo for taking down another nations sovereignty. I reckon the vid I posted is spot on, the militarization of the conflict ultimately ensures the Wests worst fear for Syria (and the region as a whole) does not come to pass; the peaceful overthrow of Assad and the start of a real actual sovereign democracy there. Better a sectarian-riddled godder-fucked war-zone than a unified and independant state.

I doubt they want that. Israel certainly wouldn't want that - it rather likes the quiet borders it shares with Syria. The West are really not fond of the likes of Al Qaeda either, though they will show surprising tolerance if it suits them. I think what they really want is the Yemen scenario where they keep the regime intact and replace the head of the state. They want Syria torn from it's alliance with Iran. The West don't necessarily know what they are doing or what the consequences of their actions are - you can't read intentions from outcomes.

 

[camouflage]

I doubt they want that. Israel certainly wouldn't want that - it rather likes the quiet borders it shares with Syria. The West are really not fond of the likes of Al Qaeda either, though they will show surprising tolerance if it suits them. I think what they really want is the Yemen scenario where they keep the regime intact and replace the head of the state. They want Syria torn from it's alliance with Iran. The West don't necessarily know what they are doing or what the consequences of their actions are - you can't read intentions from outcomes.

I respect this opinion, but also I can't help but suspect it's like the Joker said; some men just want to watch the world burn.

 

[elbows]

Finally, some information apart from the usual manipulative/conspiraloon bollocks. Militarization is certainly the enemy of the Syrian people.

I wasnt overly impressed by it. Sure it was a step or two up from the sloppiest of turds, but it still involved the usual phenomenon from this side, just in slightly more sophisticated form. I would certainly far rather be seeing people without guns on the street causing regimes to collapse than a militarised conflict, but that doesnt mean that unarmed protest movements were bound to win in Syria, or result in a new government that was truly democratic and worthy of our cheerleading.

I suppose given the circumstances it might be the best we can expect in terms of this sort of analysis, but it was still a tad one-dimensional in certain key aspects.

 

[camouflage]

I wasnt overly impressed by it. Sure it was a step or two up from the sloppiest of turds, but it still involved the usual phenomenon from this side, just in slightly more sophisticated form. I would certainly far rather be seeing people without guns on the street causing regimes to collapse than a militarised conflict, but that doesnt mean that unarmed protest movements were bound to win in Syria, or result in a new government that was truly democratic and worthy of our cheerleading.

I suppose given the circumstances it might be the best we can expect in terms of this sort of analysis, but it was still a tad one-dimensional in certain key aspects.

For instance...

 

[Riklet]

what does a "peaceful overthrow" mean?

are tyrants overthrown with placcards and nice words? were the revolutions in tunisia or egypt peaceful? IMO no, it's purely the extent of the militarisation in the syrian situation. sure this is awful for those caught up on it. still, when you look at reaction of both the Syrian state and their backers (Iran, say) as well as the Gulf/Western countries so keen to see them toppled in order to promote their regional interests their resort to serious and organised violence and militarisation of the situation demonstrates the threat that the revolt poses to the various established orders.

i'm not willing to give up on the possibility of this to be shaped by the people of Syria into something much more positive. yes, that might mean opening pandora's box, but who are we to say that what they had before is the best they can expect? fuck that. as of yet we don't get hung from a meat-hook here for saying and doing XY and Z. violence as a tactic is a response to this. this applies when it comes to the regime as well as the islamist and more external threats.

I read an article before which discussed the level that Al Qaeda has lent tactical and financial support to the FSA and is working with them in some areas. IMO this is a recipee for disaster when we look at how played out in Iraq. your enemy's enemy is not always your friend. i know my comments before sound awfully glib about not allowing the islamists to carve out a foothold but this should be one of the key challenges for any progressive, pro-working class movement seeking to benefit from the situation and the multitude of interests at play. I really don't believe this is impossible, and I also don't believe in this situation it can be achieved without violence. activists sitting around on twitter is not going to cut it when one looks at the situation that is unfolding. easy for me to say though isn't it :/

 

[camouflage]

unfortunately i'm not entirely sure what you're saying exactly.

how would steven segal put it?

 

[Casually Red]

I doubt they want that. Israel certainly wouldn't want that - it rather likes the quiet borders it shares with Syria. The West are really not fond of the likes of Al Qaeda either, though they will show surprising tolerance if it suits them. I think what they really want is the Yemen scenario where they keep the regime intact and replace the head of the state. They want Syria torn from it's alliance with Iran. The West don't necessarily know what they are doing or what the consequences of their actions are - you can't read intentions from outcomes.

the west can do fuck all because Russia has told them to do one . Simple as . Only for that - and the fact theres russian warships off the coast and thousands of russian troops and marines onshore - theyd have been bombing syria to rubble long ago . They want Assad gone and next onto Iran .

 

[Casually Red]

I read an article before which discussed the level that Al Qaeda has lent tactical and financial support to the FSA and is working with them in some areas. IMO this is a recipee for disaster when we look at how played out in Iraq. your enemy's enemy is not always your friend. i know my comments before sound awfully glib about not allowing the islamists to carve out a foothold but this should be one of the key challenges for any progressive, pro-working class movement seeking to benefit from the situation and the multitude of interests at play. I really don't believe this is impossible, and I also don't believe in this situation it can be achieved without violence. activists sitting around on twitter is not going to cut it when one looks at the situation that is unfolding. easy for me to say though isn't it :/

Al Q and the FSA are being armed and funded directly from Saudi , Qatar and Bahrain to the tune of many millions. As well as receiving logistical , diplomatic and moral support from the NATO powers. They arent backing anyone progressive , they dont want anything progressive happening anywhere ,anytime . The SWP wont be getting any papersales out of this one . Assad is all that stands between all out massacres in that country and a step back in time to medieval serfdom for women. As a secular force hes simply the most progressive player in the feild like it or not.

 

[Riklet]

stalin vs hitler.

the only choice in '44.

 

[barney_pig]

Al Q and the FSA are being armed and funded directly from Saudi , Qatar and Bahrain to the tune of many millions. As well as receiving logistical , diplomatic and moral support from the NATO powers. They arent backing anyone progressive , they dont want anything progressive happening anywhere ,anytime . The SWP wont be getting any papersales out of this one . Assad is all that stands between all out massacres in that country and a step back in time to medieval serfdom for women. As a secular force hes simply the most progressive player in the feild like it or not.

on your thread elsewhere CR you asked if you were becoming a fascisti, with this comment, is say yes you are.

 

[elbows]

Irans foreign minister gets to write an opinion piece for the Washington Post. Its what you might expect, given that Irans propaganda isnt always of the old-fashioned crude variety, and that the best propaganda involves some truth.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...f64588-e0bb-11e1-8fc5-a7dcf1fc161d_story.html

 

[camouflage]

When the Islamic Awakening began in December 2010, we all saw people rising up to claim their rights. We have witnessed the emergence of civic movements demanding freedom, democracy, dignity and self-determination.

Error 415: Unsupported media type.

 

[mkbashar1979]

The Aleppo war in Syria is not a turning point.

 

[Casually Red]

on your thread elsewhere CR you asked if you were becoming a fascisti, with this comment, is say yes you are.

were i to adopt that sort of dumbass logic Id have to consider you a salafist . Thats an absolutely ridiculous thing to say .

 

[Riklet]

It's shit politics though isn't it.

"the really shit guys are total cunts so best support the slightly less cunty alternative."

fucking great, and where does that leave most syrians in this current situation? how can your pet theory be enacted without the slaughter of thousands and thousands of people by the state?

is this 'stability, order and secularism' the best that can be achieved, and more do the point how the hell do you justify it as a supposed socialist with pro-working class politics? i really don't think you can. there's no turning the clock back to happy hour... mainly because it never existed for lots of people in syria. to deny that is to deny the economic factors which have undoubtedly shaped the Arab Spring and Syrian uprisings/conflicts.

 

[Divisive Cotton]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentis...-fighting-pharmacist-syria-sectarian-conflict

interesting article:

One Aleppo resident I speak to, an engineer living in a regime-controlled district, says he supports the revolution. But he admits many of his neighbours don't. "If I were to generalise I would say the middle class and upper class don't want the rebels. They want everything to be how it was," he says. Many poorer Aleppines had welcomed the rebel Free Syrian Army (FSA); others viewed it as a bunch of dangerous extremists; almost all were terrified of what the fighting would bring.

Abboud, however, says that far from being a loyalist Alawite fiefdom Latakia is split. Some 50% of the town oppose Assad, including some Alawis, a number of whom have been persecuted: "It isn't a matter of Alawis versus Sunnis. It's a political thing. In Syria we don't have separate communities. There are marriages, relationships between Sunnis and Alawis. We've lived together for 1,000 years. We're not dependent on religion."

 

[camouflage]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentis...-fighting-pharmacist-syria-sectarian-conflict

"It isn't a matter of Alawis versus Sunnis. It's a political thing. In Syria we don't have separate communities. There are marriages, relationships between Sunnis and Alawis. We've lived together for 1,000 years. We're not dependent on religion."

for now... *checks watch- Operation YanquiDoctor is go, today is the day minus three*

 

[teqniq]

New York Times: Video with an unpleasant twist

The Lions of Tawhid

The Times’s C.J. Chivers travels with an antigovernment fighting group in and near Aleppo, where the war for Syria’s future has hardened all involved.

 

[Riklet]

good watch. traditional arab hospitality eat your fucking heart out...

feel bad for that prisoner bloke they had, whoever he was n where ever he ended up, doubt it was great (lucky fucker though).

 

[extra dry]

some of these images are disturbing...war could consume the whole region by the end of the year, these freedom fighters are not all that quick to show humanitrian traits.
http://www.liveleak.com/c/2011_Syrian_uprising

 

[Lock&Light]

some of these images are disturbing...war could consume the whole region by the end of the year, these freedom fighters are not all that quick to show humanitrian traits.
http://www.liveleak.com/c/2011_Syrian_uprising

War is never the time to expect many signs of humanitarian traits.

 

[IC3D]

In depth report with an FSA battalion on C4 news tonight, worth seeing if your following the conflict. The middle east seems to of been carved up in the worst possible way in the 20th century.

 

[elbows]

I see the Syrian regime or its friends have been repeatedly hacking different bits of Al Jazeera in revenge recently.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19544290

 

[Knotted]

This may be a significant story:
Syrian Rebels Defect to Government Forces

A group of Syrian rebels from the Free Syrian Army (FSA) defected and joined pro-government forces on Wednesday. The troops’ commander announced that “the road is open,” and called on to other rebels to abandon their uprising.
Eleven rebel troops – three officers, two warrant officers and six civilians – defected from the FSA and now support President Bashar al-Assad, AFP reported.

 

[elbows]

This may be a significant story:
Syrian Rebels Defect to Government Forces

It might be more convincing if one of the blokes hadnt already been paraded on syrian tv for being a terrorist back in March.

http://brown-moses.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/syrian-state-propaganda-from-terrorist.html

 

[TomUS]

What I'm wondering is where are all these arms the FSA is supposed to be getting from outside. In all the video reports they say they capture all their stuff from the SAA & they are disappointed in the west for not helping them. Shameful the west isn't doing more.

 

[yield]

What I'm wondering is where are all these arms the FSA is supposed to be getting from outside. In all the video reports they say they capture all their stuff from the SAA & they are disappointed in the west for not helping them. Shameful the west isn't doing more.

Looks like the FSA are getting help from Al-Qaeda?
Al-Qaida turns tide for rebels in battle for eastern Syria
The Guardian, Monday 30 July 2012

According to Abu Khuder, his men are working closely with the military council that commands the Free Syrian Army brigades in the region. "We meet almost every day," he said. "We have clear instructions from our [al-Qaida] leadership that if the FSA need our help we should give it. We help them with IEDs and car bombs. Our main talent is in the bombing operations." Abu Khuder's men had a lot of experience in bomb-making from Iraq and elsewhere, he added.

May have been posted before?
Stymied at U.N., U.S. Refines Plan to Remove Assad
nytimes July 21, 2012

Administration officials insist they will not provide arms to the rebel forces. Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Qatar are already financing those efforts. But American officials said that the United States would provide more communications training and equipment to help improve the combat effectiveness of disparate opposition forces in their widening, sustained fight against Syrian Army troops. It’s also possible the rebels would receive some intelligence support, the officials said.

Although a lot of the arms stockpiles that Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Qatar have are American made.