Anarchists and Lifestylism revisited…

[janis joplin]

i am definitely of the belief that change has to start right now, right here, and that no-one should be waiting for the mythical revolution.
i wish it could more often be related to how we interract with other people tho, rather than what we consume.
i have meant to far too many meetings populated by sexist, homophobic, arrogant "activists" with no idea how to cope with anyone a little bit different to them and their mates.
i have also too many times been sneered at by middle-class and rich people who are able to live more "purely" than i am, with less effort.
i hope that one day i will be part of a land co-op, and that we will do fabulous things without any leader. i only want to do it tho in the right context though, and not become separatists or arrogant hippies.
i don't resent people who have more than me, but i do resent those amongst them that forget what a privileged position they're in.

 

[rioted]

these lifestyle choices are in reality only available to people with a certain amount of disposable income, or time.

They're not, though, are they?

There's more to life than as a unit of production. If you don't think so, stick to marxism.

 

[jonH]

i am definitely of the belief that change has to start right now, right here, and that no-one should be waiting for the mythical revolution.
i wish it could more often be related to how we interract with other people tho, rather than what we consume.
i have meant to far too many meetings populated by sexist, homophobic, arrogant "activists" with no idea how to cope with anyone a little bit different to them and their mates.
i have also too many times been sneered at by middle-class and rich people who are able to live more "purely" than i am, with less effort.
i hope that one day i will be part of a land co-op, and that we will do fabulous things without any leader. i only want to do it tho in the right context though, and not become separatists or arrogant hippies.
i don't resent people who have more than me, but i do resent those amongst them that forget what a privileged position they're in.

Picnicker

 

[Thora_v1]

Picnicker

What? Why are your posts always so nonsensical? It's starting to irritate me.

 

[sihhi]

I am not sure about the comment that the people who benefit from them most are the skilled nurses on higher grades. I think the benefits of Trade UNionism are real and tangible for many workers in many areas. The reality is that some sections of the workforce are able (through a skills advantage or more importantly a skills shortage in the labour force) lever out of the employer more than others. An important element for socialist/anarchist struggle within Trade Unions is to attempt to break down the sectional interests of different groups of workers so that trade union struggle becomes less clique-y.

I should have put it better. In my UNISON experience at least, healthcare assistants and temporary nurses were bossed around by nurses who would be their union reps (if they were members) at the same time.
Similarly ordinary cleaners who get bossed around by a cleaning team-leader would have had (if they were members) a team leader as a rep.

Many did appreciate that the union was vaguely on their side doing the right thing in monthly meetings but it's not hard to see why there was not much interest in "joining up and being active". Nurses, physios, OTs etc were higher represented in UNISON lists compared to cleaners, waste porters etc.

The whole clique-y full-timer + in some reps attitude "aren't i grand here's leaflets we distributed" was part of the problem.

 

[sihhi]

They're not, though, are they?

There's more to life than as a unit of production. If you don't think so, stick to marxism.

Which lifestyle choices do you mean?

Buying 'fairtrade' chocolate, buying non-polluting cars etc etc would suggest it to me.

 

[Ryazan]

ii have also too many times been sneered at by middle-class and rich people who are able to live more "purely" than i am, with less effort.
i

people that make their trousers out of old curtains?

 

[jonH]

What? Why are your posts always so nonsensical? It's starting to irritate me.

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=122980
this is a serious proposition and all the really turned on people i meet are into it
so dont get irritated get networking

 

[sihhi]

people that make their trousers out of old curtains?

Curtains!! Hoi poloi in London can make haute-couture charm necklaces out of cat turds !

 

[Ryazan]

Will make a note of mentioning that to the lads on' shift

 

[rednblack]

this is a serious proposition and all the really turned on people i meet are into it

pervs

 

[LLETSA]

Will make a note of mentioning that to the lads on' shift

Don't get 'em too wound up - they'll be getting the Stanley blades out again.

 

[Ryazan]

I have known near my college town a decent advice centre for homeless people run by radicals, but why look like the Predator's mildly attractive sister?

 

[Ryazan]

Don't get 'em too wound up - they'll be getting the Stanley blades out again.

I should keep them away from me, I might start self-harming due to the frustrations of alienation.

 

[catch]

They're not, though, are they?

Well, avoiding shopping in supermarkets is pretty hard to do if you live in a rural area where supermarkets have already gutted the village and town centres. In many cases they are the local shop for a lot of people, and it'd involve many miles round trips to be able to get similar stuff if you went out of your way to avoid them - which invariably would mean owning a car for a start, and using more petrol. A lot of 'local' shops in urban areas are franchises/chains like costcutter, or increasingly "express" versions of the big supermarkets. I appreciate my local independent shops for variety etc., but the workforce isn't necessarily better off either - wages can be lower, less flexibility with hours etc.

Fair trade and organic goods cost between 10% to 200% more than 'standard' food, depending on whether it's supermarket/farmers' market and the type of produce. Most people can afford to buy the odd one or two things, but if you try to buy most stuff from those ranges/borough market you're looking at a much bigger food bill every week. And again it depends on how close you live to places. Near me, I've got the choice of a very good street market (not organic, maybe some localish produce), or Sainsbury's/ASDA/Lidl (some organic stuff, supermarkets) - to get organic food from a non-supermarket source I'm looking about a few miles across London and significant price hikes - the closest farmers' markets are small and very expensive ones in Stoke Newington/Broadway Market. The transport would be an additional cost, and outweighs some of the environmental impact of buying "local produce" if you travel 5 miles to get to it and back. Lots of organic food (and/or vegan food) is still highly processed as well, especially since it's become more popular.

Buying used clothes requires a decent amount of charity shops, and time to browse through them. Buying new 'ethical' clothing - fair trade, hemp etc. (which doesn't challenge capitalism, only the 'nasty' bits of it anyway) is often expensive, hard to find, and generally caters to certain tastes.

Should I keep going?

There's more to life than as a unit of production. If you don't think so, stick to marxism.

Is there really? I'm not a Marxist by the way.

 

[janis joplin]

catch - those are some of the things i was thinking about too. things like having access to cash to buy land, having access to cash for a bike trailer, for a good/better education, not having to ever think about how you'll support your parents in old age, as well as being able to buy "ethical" foods and other products. alternative therapies. but above all, the confidence and articulacy that is trained/bred into certain classes in britain.
but on a personal level its not just about class or finance for me. its also about being healthy, physically and mentally. being confident and articulate and super-literate, thanks largely to your upbringing. and sneering at/avoiding others who don't share the privilege.

 

[janis joplin]

ps i am definitely not a marxist by the way! but that doesn't mean i don't acknowledge class and financial differences between folk. as well as race, sex, gender, sexuality, health, etc etc

 

[montevideo]

I'm not a Marxist by the way.

but you do a damn fine impression.

Not a criticism by the way, just wish you'd realise you are, first & foremost, a marxist from which pedestal you seek to criticise particular anarchists you don't think authentic for their 'lifestyle' attributes. Just my opinion.

 

[nosos]

Not a criticism by the way, just wish you'd realise you are, first & foremost, a marxist from which pedestal you seek to criticise particular anarchists you don't think authentic for their 'lifestyle' attributes. Just my opinion.

a damn fine opinion it is too

 

[Herbert Read]

but you do a damn fine impression.

Not a criticism by the way, just wish you'd realise you are, first & foremost, a marxist from which pedestal you seek to criticise particular anarchists you don't think authentic for their 'lifestyle' attributes. Just my opinion.

from which pedestal do you crtiticise monte, old chap

 

[kropotkin]

but you do a damn fine impression.

Not a criticism by the way, just wish you'd realise you are, first & foremost, a marxist from which pedestal you seek to criticise particular anarchists you don't think authentic for their 'lifestyle' attributes. Just my opinion.

Just a minute, monte.

Catch claims to be an anarchist/lib communist.

You then say that he is in fact not an anarchist ata ll, but a marxist, thereby putting him outside the camp you locate yourself within. You also apply to him exactly the same thing you seem to be criticising him for (i.e. determining what is a 'real' anarchist).

Do you see that you are doing this, or not?

 

[Top Dog]

By personal lifestyle choice, what we're really talking about is consumption, or consumerism. Emphasising the consumption of one commodity which is assumed to be politically (but more rightly culturally) superior over another - because it's vegan/organic/fair trade/'radical'/alternative is in essence to reinforce the idea that the market allows individuals to affect society through their buying choices [...] it's the attempt to put forward consumerist behaviour as revolutionary or political activity that's the problem.

thats the deception in a nutshell. The only thing I would say in addition is that i think consumer boycotts can have a part to play, but mainly if exercised in connection to thier links to the sphere of production or circulation, say a boycott of a particular company if it helps to reinforce a strike that its workers are engaged in for instance. But, yes, exercising our spending power in a different way, does nothing to attack the commodity society itself. Thats a tautology.

Im more interested in hearing views on other areas of life/politics that often get written off as 'lifestylist' or for being viewed as exterior to the class struggle, squatting lets say, or aspects of the informal economy.

Also, yes, i am interested in exploring what lies behind some people having such strong reactions to things like the clowns. I dont feel strongly one way or the other about them - as i dont feel they have any kind of political significance - at least not on the level by which their appearance seems to have provoked such venomous outrage here and elsewhere...

 

[montevideo]

Just a minute, monte.

Catch claims to be an anarchist/lib communist.

You then say that he is in fact not an anarchist ata ll, but a marxist, thereby putting him outside the camp you locate yourself within. You also apply to him exactly the same thing you seem to be criticising him for (i.e. determining what is a 'real' anarchist).

Do you see that you are doing this, or not?

well not to get too bogged down in definitions (because this discussion may have legs) but yes i think catch is essentially an marxist. 'Libertarian marxism' (in the terms & conditions expressed) is simply marx minus the state. I think catch hangs his politics from the pedestal of marx then attachs the various libertarian currents to fit that pedestal. Again not a criticism as such. Once he ditches the 'anarchsim' bit i think he'd be a lot more settled & satisfied with in his politics.

I don't have a camp, neither am i part of a 'movement' or part of a 'scene'. I know many would disagree but i would certainly decline any invitation to be a part of such.

 

[Random]

I don't have a camp, neither am i part of a 'movement' or part of a 'scene'. I know many would disagree but i would certainly decline any invitation to be a part of such.

Like George Best would decline any invitation to become an alcoholic, you mean?

 

[rednblack]

I don't have a camp, neither am i part of a 'movement' or part of a 'scene'. I know many would disagree but i would certainly decline any invitation to be a part of such.

denial is not just a river in egypt young grasshopper

 

[montevideo]

Like George Best would decline any invitation to become an alcoholic, you mean?

aye, an alcoholic simply being someone who drinks more than their doctor.

denial is not just a river in egypt young grasshopper

 

[rednblack]

 

[Random]

All for one, and one for all (but in a totally voluntary sense with no membership of an 'organisation' being implied).

 

[catch]

Monte.

I agree, to the extent that I've read and understand it, with Marx's analysis of the commodity form as outlined in Capital, so did Bakunin for that matter - was he a Marxist as well? Libertarian communism was the stated objective of the FAI - were they Marxists?

If describing myself as a libertarian communist and agreeing with the majority of Capital makes me a Marxist, fine, but then I'll start calling you Newtonian or Aristotelian Monte. I'd love to hear your critique of Capital - since I assume you've rejected it in order to confirm your pure-blooded non-Marxist status?

I do not agree that the industrial proletariat are a revolutionary class as distinct from other sections of the working class (or in the terms of the debate as expressed at the time, toilers, including the peasantry, lumpen and declassé), nor do I subscribe to crisis theory in the way autonomist Marxists/'70's Italian types continue to, or very much else he or his epigones wrote. My main theoretical affection is for the anarchist-communist tradition , particularly Kropotkin and Bookchin, as it has been for some time. And although I've recently developed a degree of enthusiasm for people like Harry Cleaver, it's quite recent, I've been an anarchist since I was 14 ffs, just can't see the point of calling myself that when it associates me with the clowns.

It's true that I'm much more in agreement with libertarian marxists than non-communist anarchists, don't dispute that at all, doesn't make me a Marxist though.

 

[catch]

thats the deception in a nutshell. The only thing I would say in addition is that i think consumer boycotts can have a part to play, but mainly if exercised in connection to thier links to the sphere of production or circulation, say a boycott of a particular company if it helps to reinforce a strike that its workers are engaged in for instance. But, yes, exercising our spending power in a different way, does nothing to attack the commodity society itself. Thats a tautology.

Yeah, boycotting places in co-ordination with strikes is fine with me. We shouldn't fetishise tactics - in favour of or against them.

Im more interested in hearing views on other areas of life/politics that often get written off as 'lifestylist' or for being viewed as exterior to the class struggle, squatting lets say, or aspects of the informal economy.

I don't think squatting was exterior to class struggle in the post-war years, or possibly for quite a long time after that. As it stands though, it's again only a lifestyle option available to a pretty small number of people, generally young people with no dependents. Squatting itself isn't a problem, nothing against people who do it, but holding it up as revolutionary activity, or worse, criticising people who rent for "supporting the capitalist system...maaaan" is rightly pounced on as being a load of bollocks. The way that squatted spaces (especially squatted artistic/cultural spaces) can contribute to gentrification is another thing that has to be considered. I know that's happened in New York, not so sure about the UK - I guess it must have happened to an extent in Hoxton?

Also, yes, i am interested in exploring what lies behind some people having such strong reactions to things like the clowns. I dont feel strongly one way or the other about them - as i dont feel they have any kind of political significance - at least not on the level by which their appearance seems to have provoked such venomous outrage here and elsewhere...

because they have crap like this on their site?

We are rebels because we love life and happiness more than 'revolution'. Because no revolution is ever complete and rebellions continues forever. Because we will dismantle the ghost-machine of abstraction with means that are indistinguishable from ends. Because we don't want to change 'the' world, but 'our' world. Because we will always desert and disobey those who abuse and accumulate power. Because rebels transform everything - the way they live, create, love, eat, laugh, play, learn, trade, listen, think and most of all the way they rebel.

Because they get Arts council grants (apparently) to study how to clown/protest. And because that's only a short step to becoming a an organisation like this - www.ruckus.org - professional protest consultants.