A thank you to Brexiteers.

[Barbary]

This is not about you.

It never has been. It's been about the electorate keeping hold of their voting rights.

 

[Artaxerxes]

I don't work on the basis of making things meaningful to remainers.

Yes that's kind of why we are in this mess. Instead of negotiation and trying to work out how to proceed, the last 8 years have been the Brexit evangelists throwing shit and shouting "REMOANER" at anyone who asks how this is going to work or pointing out that the Brexit campaign was full of lies and can't do what it promises to do, not least without jeopardising the rather fragile status quo of NI.

Like there's plenty of annoying overly keen Remain voters who I'd happily throw under a bus, but pretending the Brexiteers in charge of the country have been keen rational operators is wilful delusion at best.

 

[Barbary]

There's no "may" about it. For better or for worse, the EU has more right to aid us against the treacherous tendrils of Westminster.

Yes, I realise the Republicans are taking advantage of the situation in NI. I'd like to see them take advantage of their role under the EU control, in any unification outcome.

 

[philosophical]

No. But they have screwed up over NI. Brexit was the process that has finished. If we haven't left, remainers are making a song and dance over nothing.

If ‘Brexit’ was a process that has finished how come there is ongoing malarkey over Northern Ireland?
People voted leave, they didn’t vote for a process.

 

[Pickman's model]

It never has been. It's been about the electorate keeping hold of their voting rights.

The electorate will by definition always have their voting rights, whether that's the electorate 1831 or the truncated electorate of 1833.

 

[krtek a houby]

It never has been. It's been about the electorate keeping hold of their voting rights.

Ireland has voted in favour of the sometimes benefits of the EU, the occupied 6 counties are part of Ireland.

Better an uneasy alliance with our friends in the EU than oppressors in the wretched halls of Westminster.

 

[Barbary]

Yes that's kind of why we are in this mess. Instead of negotiation and trying to work out how to proceed, the last 8 years have been the Brexit evangelists throwing shit and shouting "REMOANER" at anyone who asks how this is going to work or pointing out that the Brexit campaign was full of lies and can't do what it promises to do, not least without jeopardising the rather fragile status quo of NI.

Brexit has already done what its goal was to do. Leave.

 

[two sheds]

Interesting point though - I'd thought that the EU was indeed not democratic because the European Parliament doesn't seem to make the real decisions. It is democratic though because there was a vote to leave and the UK left.

 

[Artaxerxes]

Not the case. At least not the case outside of the remain mindset anyway.

There is, of course, the existence of a large alt-right/neo-liberal/southern affluent pro-Brexit bloc. But there is also - and in the vote a decisive one - a working class, pro-change, anti establishment bloc. This latter bloc, where LeFT sought influence, voted Brexit as a response to the world that they saw around them: deindustrialization, falling wages and rising inequality and a papabile sense that they were being economically and culturally expelled from post modern Britain and were without any political representation.

As such, planet remain - with its starting point being a militant defence of the status quo - has more common ground with the pro Brexit neo-liberals whose starting point was also a militant defence of the economic status quo than does the working class pro-leave constituency.

Sure, I'll buy there is taste for change and Lexit but at no point in the Leave vote did I see that emerge to shape or direct the change and what little there was under Corbyn has long since died under Starmer so that again leaves the untapped #Lexit dream leaderless, rudderless and idealess and apparently a thousand faint voices in the wind.

Corbyn should have campaigned for Leave, he'd have enjoyed it and might have persuaded a few to go with him.

 

[Artaxerxes]

Brexit has already done what its gaol was to do. Leave.

And how do you think that is going?

 

[Pickman's model]

Brexit has already done what its gaol was to do. Leave.

So you see leave as a prison

 

[krtek a houby]

Brexit has already done what its gaol was to do. Leave.

Gaol indeed. The mask of the imperial lackey slips.

 

[Artaxerxes]

Interesting point though - I'd thought that the EU was indeed not democratic because the European Parliament doesn't seem to make the real decisions. It is democratic though because there was a vote to leave and the UK left.

The EU parliament is bad and undemocratic but we voted Leave and Northern Ireland is part of the UK even if it voted Remain so thats good.

Keep up.

 

[Pickman's model]

Gaol indeed. The mask of the imperial lackey slips.

That'll have flown over his head

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Corbyn should have campaigned for Leave, he'd have enjoyed it and might have persuaded a few to go with him.

On this point we are in full agreement

 

[gentlegreen]

Brexit WTF, WTF
It runs on Xenforo too ....

 

[Barbary]

The electorate will by definition always have their voting rights, whether that's the electorate 1831 or the truncated electorate of 1833.

Well, I'm sure you'd be happy to answer to the question of a continuous Tory government in the affirmative. You'd be happy for such a thing to happen, as you countenance the EU remaining unchallenged, indefinitely.

As you're definitely on the side of the electorate - you got Brexit. But it's really strange, you don't accept that will.

 

[two sheds]

I'm not sure why some are complaining that there shouldn't be another referendum now that most voters seem to want to rejoin - we have parliamentary elections every few years, just because the tories got voted in last time doesn't mean that's the end of parliamentary elections. (Not that I'm particularly in favour one way or the other).)

 

[philosophical]

Brexit has already done what its gaol was to do. Leave.

No it hasn’t because of Northern Ireland.
Maybe you are rather young (like under 40) and you don’t remember a time when close to 4000 people lost their lives during the modern troubles, with many more injured, and more still impacted by loss and devastation.
Are you aware that the Belfast (Good Friday) Agreement diminished those troubles very substantially?
You may go on about ‘democracy’ and what not, but perhaps you might like to consider matters of life and death.

 

[bimble]

any rationing of fruit and veg going on there in portugal The39thStep ?

 

[Artaxerxes]

The EU won't have us back and if they did it would be without the many, many, many, many, exceptions to the rules we carved out over the years so rejoining will serve no purpose but to make musicians touring a bit easier and ease the trade issues we've got. Which would probably be a net gain but its not going to have been worth the 8 years of dicking about.

 

[Artaxerxes]

Might as well just stick this on the front page of the thread because we've had the LEAVE MEANS LEAVE FUCK YOU talk and the REMAIN SHOULD HAVE WON talk for the last 400 pages.

 

[Barbary]

So you see leave as a prison

I'm human. Spelling mistakes happen. And for your information - when you refer to China, it's China, not china. But that's petty, I knew what you meant.

 

[Pickman's model]

Well, I'm sure you'd be happy to answer to the question of a continuous Tory government in the affirmative. You'd be happy for such a thing to happen, as you countenance the EU remaining unchallenged, indefinitely.

As you're definitely on the side of the electorate - you got Brexit. But it's really strange, you don't accept that will.

You dare damn me, on the basis of er no evidence, for countenancing the eu remaining unchallenged when that's precisely your position? Your hypocrisy is breathtaking

 

[brogdale]

The electorate will by definition always have their voting rights, whether that's the electorate 1831 or the truncated electorate of 1833.

Indeed. The electorate that used their "voting rights" to elect the government that negotiated and signed the withdrawal agreement enshrining EU oversight of trading arrangements with the part of the UK on the island of Ireland. Banbury lad seems less keen to reflect on that inconvenient truth.

 

[Barbary]

You dare damn me, on the basis of er no evidence, for countenancing the eu remaining unchallenged when that's precisely your position? Your hypocrisy is breathtaking

You're arguing re-joiner tripe. You disagree with a democratic vote. I don't disagree with a democratic vote. There's a difference. And I voted to have a vote on the government. The rest of the people in the EU are stuck with what we had - no vote on government.

 

[krtek a houby]

You're arguing re-joiner tripe. You disagree with a democratic vote. I don't disagree with a democratic vote. There's a difference. And I voted to have a vote on the government. The rest of the people in the EU are stuck with what we had - no vote on government.

And yet you ignore the will of the Irish people.

 

[Pickman's model]

You're arguing re-joiner tripe. You disagree with a democratic vote. I don't disagree with a democratic vote. There's a difference. And I voted to have a vote on the government. The rest of the people in the EU are stuck with what we had - no vote on government.

I don't think you can really have a democratic vote in a country which isn't really a democracy. But go on, tell me what made the 2016 referendum a democratic vote as opposed to an undemocratic vote.

 

[Pickman's model]

And yet you ignore the will of the Irish people.

He ignores a lot of things

 

[Barbary]

Indeed. The electorate that used their "voting rights" to elect the government that negotiated and signed the withdrawal agreement enshrining EU oversight of trading arrangements with the part of the UK on the island of Ireland. Banbury lad seems less keen to reflect on that inconvenient truth.

Remainers gave weakness to the negotiations. Calling for the GFA to be considered, and ending up with the worst outcome. The EU should not be in NI.