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A thank you to Brexiteers.

Smokeandsteam said:
That’s exactly what I wrote.

And as for your second point, the emergence of Boris Johnson, two points will suffice:

1. The 2019 election result - had Labour gone into it promising to respect the referendum result, and not pandered to middle class liberal remainers demanding another vote - would have been very different.
2. Johnson is a lifelong remainer too, right up until he opportunistically saw a path to power via backing leave. (Corbyn and McDonnell, tragically, took the opposite journey). I’ll leave you to decide what it says about remain politics when a fuckwit like Johnson is a fellow traveller.
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if only the remainer had included works rights on the exit bill


no wait its the Torys
 
gosub said:
Is that a strong tory party as in strong and stable May or strong as in >40% that don't have confidence in their PM?
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Terresa had a better result of a no confidence vote, did not help her

the european research group wankers around Johnson will instruct him to clining on
 
Smokeandsteam said:
The propulsive force - for working class voters - for leaving the EU was to deliver a metaphorical kick in the bollocks to the political class.
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We have been round this route many times...but just for old times sake, I'll bite once again.

Though I do accept that there's some truth in this type of analysis of the Leave vote I really do think it's quite reductive. My recollections of talking with, albeit older, working class relatives and friends in the lead to up 2016 seemed to inevitably end up with two key themes. One was a general perception that, although much was promised economically at the time of UK accession, our joining coincided with a period of decline in quality of working class life, community cohesion and that general sense that since 73/75 things had gone to shit. Now many on here know that the secular attacks on our class result from the rise of neoliberalism, the destruction of the social contract and the waning threat of system competition, but many of the Leave voters I know didn't. Understandably, they went with the correlation as causation line and voted Leave for change to all that. Not wishing to stir up the "they're all racists" debate, but the second thing that I remember really engaging with the Leave voters I know was the "European migrant crisis" that unfolded in the year before the referendum. It dominated the MSM agenda for months on end and clearly worried, maybe even frightened older voters in particular.

Obviously I'm generalising from the specifics of my recollection of the time, and I know there are obviously many more dimensions to what motivated the vote; it's just that I've never been particularly persuaded by the "kick in the bollocks" line. It just seems patronising to me suggesting that working class Leave voters were incapable of anything other than the most basic of gut reactions to the "choice" on offer.
 
philosophical said:
As in the evidence you asked for.
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If it really diluted division you'd have thought the vote for the dup wouldn't have risen and indeed that examples from elsewhere in the EU might be found but you see from eg Ireland and eg Spain that the EU does not dilute division - one need look no further than the principled stand on democracy the eu has taken on catalonia or euskadi. And your example isn't about the EU diluting division in terms of reducing the actual causes of conflict. But from what you're saying, the eec/ec/eu didn't do anything in Ireland that it wasn't doing in Germany or Portugal or Scotland or Carinthia, that any benefit to the situation in Ireland was purely coincidental
 
brogdale said:
We have been round this route many times...but just for old times sake, I'll bite once again.

Though I do accept that there's some truth in this type of analysis of the Leave vote I really do think it's quite reductive. My recollections of talking with, albeit older, working class relatives and friends in the lead to up 2016 seemed to inevitably end up with two key themes. One was a general perception that, although much was promised economically at the time of UK accession, our joining coincided with a period of decline in quality of working class life, community cohesion and that general sense that since 73/75 things had gone to shit. Now many on here know that the secular attacks on our class result from the rise of neoliberalism, the destruction of the social contract and the waning threat of system competition, but many of the Leave voters I know didn't. Understandably, they went with the correlation as causation line and voted Leave for change to all that. Not wishing to stir up the "they're all racists" debate, but the second thing that I remember really engaging with the Leave voters I know was the "European migrant crisis" that unfolded in the year before the referendum. It dominated the MSM agenda for months on end and clearly worried, maybe even frightened older voters in particular.

Obviously I'm generalising from the specifics of my recollection of the time, and I know there are obviously many more dimensions to what motivated the vote; it's just that I've never been particularly persuaded by the "kick in the bollocks" line. It just seems patronising to me suggesting that working class Leave voters were incapable of anything other than the most basic of gut reactions to the "choice" on offer.
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All my parents voted leave,

My mum "to piss David Cameron off"
My dad "to get power to people we can vote out"
Stepmum 1 “immigration"
Stepmum 2 “actually believed the bus"

I have hardly looked at this thread but just seems to be the same arguments repeating forever.
 
tommers said:
My mum "to piss David Cameron off"
My dad "to get power to people we can vote out"
Stepmum 1 “immigration"
Stepmum 2 “actually believed the bus"
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This is why brexit is a fail, the 2 choice allowed in the ballot meant different things to different people.

The result is not failure of the people though but failure of the politicians and civil servants who came up with the stupid in or out choice.

What party was that again... torys, theres ways of making money out of every situation, war, famine, pestilence... always money to be made
 
Pickman's model said:
If it really diluted division you'd have thought the vote for the dup wouldn't have risen and indeed that examples from elsewhere in the EU might be found but you see from eg Ireland and eg Spain that the EU does not dilute division - one need look no further than the principled stand on democracy the eu has taken on catalonia or euskadi. And your example isn't about the EU diluting division in terms of reducing the actual causes of conflict. But from what you're saying, the eec/ec/eu didn't do anything in Ireland that it wasn't doing in Germany or Portugal or Scotland or Carinthia, that any benefit to the situation in Ireland was purely coincidental
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It may have been coincidental, but it happened. The EU wide adoption of the single market in 1993 led to things like the customs post I pictured going away.
I see that as a factor in the dilution of conflict even if you don’t, or even if you don’t think it was enough.
I do not see the adoption of the single market to be the only bit of progress made to tackle the conflict in Ireland, but I believe it helped, as I say if only for the reason that such border infrastructure went away.
 
philosophical said:
It may have been coincidental, but it happened. The EU wide adoption of the single market in 1993 led to things like the customs post I pictured going away.
I see that as a factor in the dilution of conflict even if you don’t, or even if you don’t think it was enough.
I do not see the adoption of the single market to be the only bit of progress made to tackle the conflict in Ireland, but I believe it helped, as I say if only for the reason that such border infrastructure went away.
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But the border infrastructure wasn't the cause or a major cause of the conflict and its removal did nothing about the occupation of the six counties or the structural inequalities in them. Or for that matter inequalities in the 26 cos
 
Yeah whatever.
It is said that a journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step, I would add to make sure the first step is in the right direction.
 
Not the same Tom Watson who said

I think it’s very likely that a Labour government would want to reform the European Union and yes, if we get to a general election in 2020, of course we would have to listen to our voters. They’re giving us a pretty clear signal in this referendum, and I think we should be listening very clearly to what they’re telling us ...

I’m very proud of Jeremy’s very long-held view that Britain should rightly lead the world in its reputation for providing haven for people fleeing war-torn areas or fleeing persecution, but that pride risks being undermined if we don’t address the concerns of British workers who have been affected by a de-regulated labour market. And they’ve been telling us for some time now that we need to look at these issues. So I think it could be that we go into a UK general election with that reform proposals on offer ...

With freedom of movement, it’s one issue that’s coming up on the doorstep. A future government - whether it be Labour or Conservative - has to hear what voters are telling them and if you look across the continent of Europe, voters are telling political elites the same thing. So to me it’s inevitable that whoever wins the next general election will have to make it their negotiating position when it comes to future European reform and David Cameron has the opportunity to do that as prime minister now if he makes it the priority for Britain’s leadership of the presidency of the EU next year.
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Pickman's model said:
It's been interesting to see the only thing you think the eu did in Ireland to dilute division is removal of border infrastructure.
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Will you link to the post where I said it was the only thing?
Do you think the removal of border infrastructure was beneficial?
I doubt you are genuinely interested in what I think, to me your modus operandi with me and some other posters seems to be all about trying to put people down in order to position yourself as somehow superior.
It doesn’t work with me.
 
philosophical said:
Will you link to the post where I said it was the only thing?
Do you think the removal of border infrastructure was beneficial?
I doubt you are genuinely interested in what I think, to me your modus operandi with me and some other posters seems to be all about trying to put people down in order to position yourself as somehow superior.
It doesn’t work with me.
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What else has the eu done to dilute division in Ireland then?
 
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