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A thank you to Brexiteers.

Pickman's model said:
What else has the eu done to dilute division in Ireland then?
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My example isn’t enough for you then? Although you don’t dispute it.
Do you think the Erasmus scheme helped cross border study, and as a ‘soft’ benefit developed better understanding between divided communities, especially in the context of the separateness of secondary schooling in Northern Ireland?
What are you expecting some kind of list?
What do you think is meant by the word ‘dilution’?
 
Maggot said:
Mind mind all the EU legislation on pay, hours, equality, part-time workers, and the right to strike.
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The EU has systematically worked against workers' rights in recent years, as I've previously discussed here, here, and here. While the EU provided some benefits in many areas for workers, it remains a neoliberal institution and has been an architect of anti-worker law changes in its member states, particularly with regard to collective bargaining and the right to strike.
 
Maggot said:
OOOH, one remainer against one strike. That's enough evidence for me. :rolleyes:

Mind mind all the EU legislation on pay, hours, equality, part-time workers, and the right to strike.
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I think Colin Hunt has comprehensively dealt with your main point, but I think it’s worth adding one other point. Adonis isn’t just ‘one remainer’, he’s an important and influential ‘thinker’ amongst labour and liberal leaders. He’s the epitome, in fact, of the British professional middle class.
 
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Colin Hunt said:
The EU has systematically worked against workers' rights in recent years, as I've previously discussed here, here, and here. While the EU provided some benefits in many areas for workers, it remains a neoliberal institution and has been an architect of anti-worker law changes in its member states, particularly with regard to collective bargaining and the right to strike.
Click to expand...

and of course the Tory party enshrined worker right into the exit bill and are not treating the rights to strike atm

no wait
 
philosophical said:
My example isn’t enough for you then? Although you don’t dispute it.
Do you think the Erasmus scheme helped cross border study, and as a ‘soft’ benefit developed better understanding between divided communities, especially in the context of the separateness of secondary schooling in Northern Ireland?
What are you expecting some kind of list?
What do you think is meant by the word ‘dilution’?
Click to expand...
i don't think that the removal of the border infrastructure you've mentioned, customs posts, diluted - reduced - division one iota. it did not lead to the island becoming a single unit in terms of planning, in terms of development, in terms of any form of policy setting. while the border posts might have gone in the early 90s, security checkpoints were still there until as a result of the gfa they were dismantled between 1998 and 2005. even so, the border is still there with taxation on one side very different from taxation on the other. donegal has not become tied in to its natural hinterland of derry or the other way round. the removal of the border infrastructure is basically cosmetic as on one side of it british law is enforced, and on the other irish. the essence of the conflict remains intact, namely that britain - despite claiming no selfish interest in the six counties - continues to hold it despite the clear iniquities of the division of ireland for the island's population both north and south.

the erasmus scheme is not taken up by many students from the six counties - 649 from the six counties in 2019/20. now the irish government will support ni students' use of erasmus (Erasmus for Northern Irish Students from September - Fine Gael). but i don't know where they study, if protestants from east belfast go to study in cork or galway, and i doubt you do either. and it's a peculiar choice when over the period in which the erasmus scheme has existed divisions - inequalities - have increased in english society, in german society, in french society - it would be a great surprise if the erasmus scheme had had anything more than a tangential impact on divisions in the six counties.

none of this answers my query about what the cm/eec/eu did to dilute division in ireland in the 20 years prior to the creation of the single market, for which you've been utterly silent.

as for superiority, i don't feel personally superior to you. but the arguments you advance especially on this point under discussion - well, they're so feeble you'd do better not to make them. because from everything you've said brussels did nothing to dilute division in the six counties or the twenty-six except what they were doing elsewhere, that in other words they did not care.
 
Pickman's model said:
i don't think that the removal of the border infrastructure you've mentioned, customs posts, diluted - reduced - division one iota. it did not lead to the island becoming a single unit in terms of planning, in terms of development, in terms of any form of policy setting. while the border posts might have gone in the early 90s, security checkpoints were still there until as a result of the gfa they were dismantled between 1998 and 2005. even so, the border is still there with taxation on one side very different from taxation on the other. donegal has not become tied in to its natural hinterland of derry or the other way round. the removal of the border infrastructure is basically cosmetic as on one side of it british law is enforced, and on the other irish. the essence of the conflict remains intact, namely that britain - despite claiming no selfish interest in the six counties - continues to hold it despite the clear iniquities of the division of ireland for the island's population both north and south.

the erasmus scheme is not taken up by many students from the six counties - 649 from the six counties in 2019/20. now the irish government will support ni students' use of erasmus (Erasmus for Northern Irish Students from September - Fine Gael). but i don't know where they study, if protestants from east belfast go to study in cork or galway, and i doubt you do either. and it's a peculiar choice when over the period in which the erasmus scheme has existed divisions - inequalities - have increased in english society, in german society, in french society - it would be a great surprise if the erasmus scheme had had anything more than a tangential impact on divisions in the six counties.

none of this answers my query about what the cm/eec/eu did to dilute division in ireland in the 20 years prior to the creation of the single market, for which you've been utterly silent.

as for superiority, i don't feel personally superior to you. but the arguments you advance especially on this point under discussion - well, they're so feeble you'd do better not to make them. because from everything you've said brussels did nothing to dilute division in the six counties or the twenty-six except what they were doing elsewhere, that in other words they did not care.
Click to expand...

Pedants point. There was and remains a single policy between North and South for electricity generation, distribution and supply.

The whole of the island of Ireland is a synchronous transmission system and has a single market for electricity.
 
A380 said:
Pedants point. There was and remains a single policy between North and South for electricity generation, distribution and supply.

The whole of the island of Ireland is a synchronous transmission system and has a single market for electricity.
Click to expand...
have your pedant's point. but i am not sure that was a european initiative
 
The39thStep said:
I'm finding it increasingly difficult to understand anything you post tbh.
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oh do fuck off

you got that one right?

from someone who tagged me then posted a ransom tweet from Adonis about train strikes and you saying you have to figure out what I'm getting at twat
 
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Pickman's model said:
i don't think that the removal of the border infrastructure you've mentioned, customs posts, diluted - reduced - division one iota. it did not lead to the island becoming a single unit in terms of planning, in terms of development, in terms of any form of policy setting. while the border posts might have gone in the early 90s, security checkpoints were still there until as a result of the gfa they were dismantled between 1998 and 2005. even so, the border is still there with taxation on one side very different from taxation on the other. donegal has not become tied in to its natural hinterland of derry or the other way round. the removal of the border infrastructure is basically cosmetic as on one side of it british law is enforced, and on the other irish. the essence of the conflict remains intact, namely that britain - despite claiming no selfish interest in the six counties - continues to hold it despite the clear iniquities of the division of ireland for the island's population both north and south.

the erasmus scheme is not taken up by many students from the six counties - 649 from the six counties in 2019/20. now the irish government will support ni students' use of erasmus (Erasmus for Northern Irish Students from September - Fine Gael). but i don't know where they study, if protestants from east belfast go to study in cork or galway, and i doubt you do either. and it's a peculiar choice when over the period in which the erasmus scheme has existed divisions - inequalities - have increased in english society, in german society, in french society - it would be a great surprise if the erasmus scheme had had anything more than a tangential impact on divisions in the six counties.

none of this answers my query about what the cm/eec/eu did to dilute division in ireland in the 20 years prior to the creation of the single market, for which you've been utterly silent.

as for superiority, i don't feel personally superior to you. but the arguments you advance especially on this point under discussion - well, they're so feeble you'd do better not to make them. because from everything you've said brussels did nothing to dilute division in the six counties or the twenty-six except what they were doing elsewhere, that in other words they did not care.
Click to expand...

Can you remind me where you specified the time period between 1973 and 1993?
Would you like to narrow down the impact of EU influence in Ireland to a specific day, and ask me to be specific about dilution at that moment?
The UK leaving the EU is presently ratcheting up tension in Ireland, why do you think that is? We will get more news about that dog’s dinner today.
I accept that you have moved from a position that my stance has no basis to it being ‘feeble’, I disagree that the removal of border infrastructure is a feeble or merely a bureaucratic event, so we have different opinions on that.
Whether the EU specifically ‘cared’ about the specific situation in Ireland or not is irrelevant, what the EU did generally (you use the word elsewhere) was an aid to pan European harmony (less violence) which was a help to dilute the problems in Ireland.
If you say that both the UK and the ROI being in the EU at the same time had no upside then I disagree, for the reasons stated above.
If you want to go round and round on this issue fill your boots, you certainly won’t persuade me.
 
Ax^ said:
oh do fuck off

you got that one right?

from someone who tagged me then posted a ransom tweet from Adonis about train strikes and you saying you have to figure out what I'm getting at twat
Click to expand...
No need to be abusive chum, it's 0900hrs on a Monday morning. BTW what is a ransom tweet?
 
Ax^ said:
9 am on Monday morning is great time to be abusive you cunt :p
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Trust me , I'm not trying to be abusive . I'm simply saying that I have had problems understanding your most recent posts. For example what were you trying to say in this one ?

and of course the Tory party enshrined worker right into the exit bill and are not treating the rights to strike atm
Click to expand...
 
philosophical said:
Can you remind me where you specified the time period between 1973 and 1993?
Would you like to narrow down the impact of EU influence in Ireland to a specific day, and ask me to be specific about dilution at that moment?
The UK leaving the EU is presently ratcheting up tension in Ireland, why do you think that is? We will get more news about that dog’s dinner today.
I accept that you have moved from a position that my stance has no basis to it being ‘feeble’, I disagree that the removal of border infrastructure is a feeble or merely a bureaucratic event, so we have different opinions on that.
Whether the EU specifically ‘cared’ about the specific situation in Ireland or not is irrelevant, what the EU did generally (you use the word elsewhere) was an aid to pan European harmony (less violence) which was a help to dilute the problems in Ireland.
If you say that both the UK and the ROI being in the EU at the same time had no upside then I disagree, for the reasons stated above.
If you want to go round and round on this issue fill your boots, you certainly won’t persuade me.
Click to expand...
i thought that as someone who claims to have given a spot of thought to ireland and brexit you'd actually know something of the subject and be able to rattle off a list of what the europeans had ever done for that island. instead you come up with two things which are tangential to the situation in ireland during the troubles, and don't er trouble yourself to look any further back than 1993. if there was ever a time to start to dilute divisions in ireland, i'd have thought that time was at some point between 1969 and 1994 when the ira ceasefire was announced. surely, i felt, you'd have put some small effort into finding out how brussels - be it brussels with a common market, a european economic community or european union hat on - had done for ireland (32 cos). instead you come out with some tosh about the single market and erasmus, the first of which didn't really affect the crossing of the border for some years as security checkpoints only began to be removed following the gfa, the second of which can't be measured in terms of where people from the six counties went to study - though if you've had any better luck than i in finding that information i hope you'll share it.

i thought that at the very least you'd have looked for a website like this Ireland's EU membership | Ireland European Commission, this article CAIN: Issues: Europe: The European Union and Relationships Within Ireland by Jeson Ingraham or this StackPath. i thought that you might even have mentioned this book Ireland and the European Union or this one The European Union and the Northern Ireland Peace Process. they say an empty vessel makes the loudest noise, and on this subject you've definitely been a far emptier vessel than i expected.
 
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BBC article on fruit pickers

www.bbc.com

UK farmers turn to Nepal and Tajikistan for fruit pickers

No longer able to rely on workers from places like Ukraine, the UK is recruiting from further afield.
www.bbc.com

Tim Chambers, who owns a network of 24 farms in south east England, has told the recruitment firms he doesn't want workers from countries like Indonesia, Vietnam or the Philippines.
"It's not because I in any way have an issue with race, creed, or colour," he says. "[But] if you suddenly bring in a whole new country, culture, way of life, into your farm, it can cause major problems.
"In terms of efficiency, a new recruit in the first season is 25% less productive," he says.
"There will be cultural and lifestyle things too," he says.


Mr Chambers says he has a large number of experienced workers from central and eastern Europe still returning to work on his farms - he's already making sure not to put Russians and Ukrainians in shared accommodation to avoid friction.
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This is the same entrepreneur who said in 2019

The situation we as fruit farmers find ourselves in today is a scenario that periodically arises as the source of our labour becomes capable of rewarding its own workers to a level that makes them no longer economic migrants. Realistically, the government is going to have to allow workers from the next most economically impoverished nation into the country to undertake the work that UK citizens simply don’t want to do. Hence the solution to our labour problem is quite simple and has been solved countless times in the past, however the political will to make it happen is understandably not.

"We would be better placed to grow our crops in countries where the wages are lower and then airfreight the berries back to the UK."
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