A thank you to Brexiteers.

[ska invita]

Independent nations make for better democracy? What, like the United States you mean?

The smaller the democratic unit, the better

 

[ska invita]

None of that will improve anyone's everyday life.

potentially lots of improvements, to the environment, to the nature of work and to democracy
potentially not though

 

[brogdale]

OK, it's worth hearing that from someone I consider a worthwhile poster, even if I don't always agree with you.

Maybe it comes across that way because much of my posting is in response to what appears to me to be idiotic and simplistic blaming of Brexit for everything.

I will try to take that on board in the future...

Honestly mate, don't do anything on my account; I completely get that for most folk this was and is a binary and you're one one side or the other.

I'm just in that odd little sect who never had a dog in the fight and don't believe that tinkering (or not) with our constitutional arrangements or trading focus will ever change anything of any substance for working people.

 

[ska invita]

I'm just in that odd little sect who never had a dog in the fight and don't believe that tinkering (or not) with our constitutional arrangements or trading focus will ever change anything of any substance for working people.

depends on your meaning of substance, but its already changing things, and will continue to do so, all the more so when the full regulationary system kicks in
the question is will it on balance make thing better or worse, and what can be done to shape that
i fear the deregulation the Tories no doubt have in their pockets - that is a potential substantial change
oppositely it might well create opportunities for workers to exert power...substantially...the status quo around work has never looked as fragile to me as in this period of covid+ Brexit

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

As people keep asking about the benefits of brexit , and the thread on that topic got locked (lol) im reposting/rephrasing this;

1. Reform of the common agricultural policy could have huge implications for land use/especially rewilding/increasing biodiversity
could also put a lot of farmers out of action, particularly animal farmers (inc fishers) - much as i sympathise with anyone losing their way of life and work, i see that as a long-term good thing for society

2. The ability of government to subsidise/nationalise via state aid laws
this has yet to be tested against the withdrawal agreement - if something was nationalised that then sold to the EU there might be some offset/trade dispute. maybe not
how much this was ever practically an issue when the UK was in the EU is disputed as it was barely ever tested, nonetheless...

3. Break up the united kingdom - bit unintended, could have been avoided without all the endless Tory South East-centric governments, but looks like too late for that now. Independent nations makes for better democracy and will be a sharp kick to the english establishment

4. Not being part of an apparently ever closer political, economic, diplomatic and military union within the EU is a really good one, though it is far from certain what the near future of the EU is . Good reason to believe it is going to continue to centralise.
A layer of unelected bureaucracy has been removed, and a bureaucracy with a neoliberal agenda and power at that.
Its got to be good for democracy, even if it feels abstract

5. Shortages can have some benefits. The capitalist-consumption model the UK is built on needs binning.
The UK establishment is expert at maintaining and deepening the status quo. Anything that puts spanners in the works of that creates opportunities for change - opportunities that are routinely normally blocked off.
I give no shits about milkshakes and crisp shortages, but clearly this becomes a matter of life and death when flu vaccines and care workers are under threat. Having to have faith in the Tories to resolve these issue and quickly is scary.

My scepticism with all the above - now and before the vote - is that while it creates room for improvements, it also creates room for things to get worse, and that massive nationalistic boost Brexit has given the Tories further entrenching them in power + sinking the Labour Left means there's every reason to fear things getting worse.

We are where we are though, and crisis - such as Covid - can lead to opportunity to positively reform society. There's a lot to play for right now, and rather than wishing we never left the EU and pushing that narrative, it would be better to try and push wedges into where those gaps have opened up and concentrate on that. I'm sick to death of the status quo, and while I dont believe Things Cant Get Any Worse - they clearly can - at least there's some kind of change happening and opportunities for deeper change to come.

1 - Farmers losing their livelihoods is a good thing. Riiiiight.

2 - You are aware of who's in charge here, yeah?

3 - Hmmmm

4 - Fair enough. I can understand this argument, but don't personally agree with it.

5 - Get real. Nothing is going to change. Global capitalism isn't going anywhere.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

it might well create opportunities for workers to exert power...substantially...

This is a fantasy I'm afraid.

 

[brogdale]

Having said that I have no dog in the fight, I've always understood the motivation for nationalist and free-market fundamentalists to agitate for exit from the regulation and shared sovereignty of the suprastate, but the so-called Lexit guff has always left me scratching my head.

 

[ska invita]

1 - Farmers losing their livelihoods is a good thing. Riiiiight.

2 - You are aware of who's in charge here, yeah?

3 - Hmmmm

4 - Fair enough. I can understand this argument, but don't personally agree with it.

5 - Get real. Nothing is going to change. Global capitalism isn't going anywhere.

1. Yes, sorry but animal farming has to stop.
2. yes, i made my cyncicism of it clear
3. mmm
4. x
5. global capitalism isnt going anywhere, but conditions within it are continuously changing

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

the so-called Lexit guff has always left me scratching my head.

I get the concept of a "Lexit" and could support it, but I just can't fathom how anyone with even the slightest idea of what's going on in the world right now could possibly think it was/is in any way going to happen

 

[ska invita]

This is a fantasy I'm afraid.

yesterdays fantasy is tomorrows utopia!
in case its not clear, im deeply sceptical about any of this, i didnt vote in the referendum, but im trying to answer the question about benefits of brexit impartially. history doesnt stand still

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

5. global capitalism isnt going anywhere, but conditions within it are continuously changing

The pawns on the board might be getting moved around (and sacrificed), but the kings and queens at the back are firmly entrenched...

 

[ska invita]

the kings and queens at the back are firmly entrenched...

Britain’s plan for when Queen Elizabeth II dies

POLITICO has obtained documents laying out Operation LONDON BRIDGE in granular detail.

www.politico.eu

 

[ska invita]

...my list of potential negatives is a lot longer tbh

 

[Elpenor]

I’m in Teignbridge, one of the places with delays to bin collections, and they’ve just come on a Saturday as they have every week following a bank holiday.

 

[gosub]

What keeps me engaged is witnessing the almost religious devotion of the Brexit loyalists and their desire to defend the holy relic from any infidel criticism.

Hasn't read like that to me

 

[brogdale]

Hasn't read like that to me

But which side are you on?

 

[Pickman's model]

The smaller the democratic unit, the better

Yeh nations are a right small democratic unit

 

[gosub]

But which side are you on?

I've been a critic of the EU on these boards for over 20years. Voted leave.

 

[ska invita]

Yeh nations are a right small democratic unit

the four nations of the UK are smaller units than the UK in total. Is my meaning really not clear to you?

 

[andysays]

Honestly mate, don't do anything on my account; I completely get that for most folk this was and is a binary and you're one one side or the other.

I'm just in that odd little sect who never had a dog in the fight and don't believe that tinkering (or not) with our constitutional arrangements or trading focus will ever change anything of any substance for working people.

OK, I obviously do have a dog in the fight, but I genuinely don't want to come across as "Brexit right or wrong".

I'd still hope we (or at least some of us) can have a genuine and productive discussion about how we all deal with the challenges Brexit has thrown up, however we voted (or didn't) five years ago.

 

[brogdale]

OK, I obviously do have a dog in the fight, but I genuinely don't want to come across as "Brexit right or wrong".

I'd still hope we (or at least some of us) can have a genuine and productive discussion about how we all deal with the challenges Brexit has thrown up, however we voted (or didn't) five years ago.

Sure thing, Andy.

 

[Pickman's model]

the four nations of the UK are smaller units than the UK in total. Is my meaning really not clear to you?

I don't see how a smaller unit is more democratic than a larger one. You think the six counties is more democratic than say England? You're having a laugh. Loads of dubious shit goes on in local authorities, which are quite as corrupt in their own way as larger units. I don't see more democracy in Scotland or Wales, just the same 'cross a box' every few years. Where is this more democracy?

 

[brogdale]

I've been a critic of the EU on these boards for over 20years. Voted leave.

No surprise, then, that you've struggled to perceive any knee-jerk defence of Brexit (right or wrong)?

 

[andysays]

When you talk about ‘short term fallout’ do you have in mind a couple of years sort of thing?
After which you hope or expect that some particular things will be better than they were / would have been without brexit?

Yes, that's the time period i'm talking about.

I hope that in the medium term some things will be significantly better than they were / would have been, but that still depends on what people as active participants do.

If everyone simply wallows in post-Brexit despair, the shitness of it all will become a self-fulfilling prophecy, a result which some on this thread (not you, to be fair) would appear to welcome.

 

[gosub]

No surprise, then, that you've struggled to perceive any knee-jerk defence of Brexit (right or wrong)?

As I said hasn't read like that to me.

Anyway busy day, stuff to do.

 

[ska invita]

I don't see how a smaller unit is more democratic than a larger one. You think the six counties is more democratic than say England? You're having a laugh. Loads of dubious shit goes on in local authorities, which are quite as corrupt in their own way as larger units. I don't see more democracy in Scotland or Wales, just the same 'cross a box' every few years. Where is this more democracy?

I tend to talk in generalisations and think in them too - thats just me, i doubt that will ever change
i stand by the general sentiment, imperfect though it may be

For example, because the uk government in encamped in the SE of England it particularly fails to represent areas beyond the SE of England
I want to see the six counties independent of the UK precisely for the reason you seem to think contradicts what I am saying. The six counties is not an independent political unit - if only it was.
Achieving a pure and ideal condition of direct democracy - if such a thing can really exist at national levels - IMO means moving ever closer to a democratic model that is as localised as possible.

 

[Smangus]

Yes, that's the time period i'm talking about.

I hope that in the medium term some things will be significantly better than they were / would have been, but that still depends on what people as active participants do.

If everyone simply wallows in post-Brexit despair, the shitness of it all will become a self-fulfilling prophecy, a result which some on this thread (not you, to be fair) would appear to welcome.

Some things will be better, some things will be worse. The question is which will outweigh which. Too early to say really I think, apart from some obvious changes which might be early but not longlasting, nobody really knows. Covid has muddied the waters somewhat too. 3-5 years will show us what it will look like longer term I think.

 

[Badgers]

What made Britain a failing state? The simple answer is: Brexit did. One of history’s most colossal, profoundly stupid, self-destructive mistakes. Britain’s running out of beer. The more complicated answer, though, goes like this. The obsessive ideological fixation of a string of the most spectacularly incompetent governments a rich country’s had in post-war history. An obsession with scapegoating Europe — a friend, ally, and partner — for Britain’s very own shortcomings and mistakes. Austerity, for over a decade, while a propaganda campaign was put in place, to blame Europe for Britain growing poorer.

How Brexit Britain Became a Failing State

Brexit Britain is Running Short of Everything, From Beer to Blood Tests. This is What it Means to Become a Failing State

eand.co

 

[bimble]

Thinking about timescales, we haven't fully brexited yet even in the most basic way, it will take a long time to reach the end of all the existing grace periods and extensions of extensions etc.
And if / when the existing terms of the withdrawal agreement are finally done, then it will just be endless tetchy renegotiation, for ever, of the future relationship of Uk with EU, So I don't know when you'd be able to start assessing the difference between before and after.

Even without stuff like that the great Sausage War is back on now & "Boris Johnson and Lord David Frost now have no excuses for not triggering Article 16 and suspending the Northern Ireland Protocol, Brexiteer Baroness Hoey has said.."

 

[bimble]

Lord Frost yesterday:
"Brexit is not a thing in itself. It is not a choice to live in permanent confrontation with our friends and neighbours. Rather it is a first stage, a necessary gateway through which this country had to pass in order to give us freedom, if we make the right choices, to free up and liberalise our economy.."