dessiato
🇪🇸 españa te quiero
Liked for the request for a tangible Brexit positive. I've asked here and other places this same question and have yet to receive an answer. There really isn't one, is there?
A thank you to Brexiteers.
- Thread starter MrSki
- Start date
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
A proper positive? Is the sidelining of Nigel farage and marginalisation of ukip not good enough for you?
Yossarian
⏭️
I'd say it's a benefit if a shortage of workers has spurred the government to step up efforts to help unemployed and underemployed people retrain as HGV drivers etc., though of course there was nothing stopping the Tory cunts doing that before Brexit.
andysays
Love and solidarity
I never said "I know what I voted for" or suggested there wouldn't be any short term fallout.
If you don't accept what I've written about the complex reasons why these problems are occuring now, maybe this illustration from the article TopCat just posted will help.
Although Brexit is cited as one of the reasons, there are also many others.
Raheem
Well-Known Member
It's not Brexit that's the problem per se. Would have been fine if they had done it somewhere other than Britain.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
tbf, that graphic raises as many questions as it offers clarity on the relative import of the factors.
One obvious deficiency being that we don't know whether or not the 55% of hauliers citing Brexit as a cause happen to include all of the larger employers etc.
MrSki
Who am I to say you're wrong
So is short term fall out 50 years?
Brexit is one of the reasons & it was even stupider to go ahead with it in the middle of a pandemic.
What wonderful benefits have you felt & do you feel that West Green Road is full of happier peeps since Brexit?
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Please don't use the phrase 'peeps'
andysays
Love and solidarity
Sure, I'm just making the point that there are many reasons, and even the members of the Road Haulage Association recognise that.
We don't have to accept or agree on the percentages to understand that the issue is more complex than simply Brexit.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
In truth, there are just 3 strands cited there; 2 exogenous factors Brexit, Covid and the issues created by the hauliers' own decisions on pay and conditions.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
What keeps me engaged is witnessing the almost religious devotion of the Brexit loyalists and their desire to defend the holy relic from any infidel criticism.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
I wonder how long it will be before people trade for proper brexit relics eg Nigel farage's tibia or skull or Boris Johnson's ulna
andysays
Love and solidarity
And I would argue that the size of both the Brexit effect and the Covid effect are greater than they would have been had the hauliers made different/better decisions about pay and conditions over the years, especially knowing since 2016 that Brexit would likely make some difference.
ETA this goes for employers in various other industries as well. Hauliers are just one example.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
andysays
Love and solidarity
Out of interest, who on this thread do you think is doing that?
I don't care what some of the posters on the thread think, but I'd be concerned if you included me in that, because it genuinely isn't my intention to come across that way.
MrSki
Who am I to say you're wrong
Noted.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
You do appear to be among those who's knee-jerk reactions are defensive of the project.
But that's just my perception, and I'm not Brexit loyal.
Yossarian
⏭️
The transition from "shortages are fake news" to "shortages are a victory for the workers" was impressively smooth, tbf.
bimble
floofy
Shortages are not caused by brexit, however any rising wages related to said shortages those are caused by brexit.
andysays
Love and solidarity
OK, it's worth hearing that from someone I consider a worthwhile poster, even if I don't always agree with you.
Maybe it comes across that way because much of my posting is in response to what appears to me to be idiotic and simplistic blaming of Brexit for everything.
I will try to take that on board in the future...
MrSki
Who am I to say you're wrong
That is very kind of you.
So I am going to ask you the simple question... What have been the benefits of Brexit?
MrSki
Who am I to say you're wrong
You cunt.
andysays
Love and solidarity
In case I haven't already made it clear, you are one of the posters on this thread whose opinions I don't care about, and I'm not interested in engaging with your simplistic twaddle.
And your repeated references to the area where I live are beginning to look a bit creepy now, BTW.
Yossarian
⏭️
If you think these bones have resale value I suggest you extract them now instead of waiting to see what the penguins leave behind.
bimble
floofy
When you talk about ‘short term fallout’ do you have in mind a couple of years sort of thing?
After which you hope or expect that some particular things will be better than they were / would have been without brexit?
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MrSki
Who am I to say you're wrong
Oh dear you have ruined my weekend. Can't come up with an answer so sulks off.
Simplistic twaddle? or can't come up with a long list of benefits?
The area you live in was somewhere I lived in too for a number of years but I have only referred to Totters & West Green Road twice so don't make it out as though I am stalking you.
Please answer the simple question & feel free to put me on ignore.
beesonthewhatnow
going deaf for a living
Here and elsewhere a lot of people appear not to be able to distinguish supporting the idea of the UK leaving the EU (which as a standalone idea does have merit, even if I don't personally agree with it) with supporting this particular way of leaving the EU, which is an absolute shitshow and was always going to be.
ska invita
back on the other side
As people keep asking about the benefits of brexit , and the thread on that topic got locked (lol) im reposting/rephrasing this;
1. Reform of the common agricultural policy could have huge implications for land use/especially rewilding/increasing biodiversity
could also put a lot of farmers out of action, particularly animal farmers (inc fishers) - much as i sympathise with anyone losing their way of life and work, i see that as a long-term good thing for society
2. The ability of government to subsidise/nationalise via state aid laws
this has yet to be tested against the withdrawal agreement - if something was nationalised that then sold to the EU there might be some offset/trade dispute. maybe not
how much this was ever practically an issue when the UK was in the EU is disputed as it was barely ever tested, nonetheless...
3. Break up the united kingdom - bit unintended, could have been avoided without all the endless Tory South East-centric governments, but looks like too late for that now. Independent nations makes for better democracy and will be a sharp kick to the english establishment
4. Not being part of an apparently ever closer political, economic, diplomatic and military union within the EU is a really good one, though it is far from certain what the near future of the EU is . Good reason to believe it is going to continue to centralise.
A layer of unelected bureaucracy has been removed, and a bureaucracy with a neoliberal agenda and power at that.
Its got to be good for democracy, even if it feels abstract
5. Shortages can have some benefits. The capitalist-consumption model the UK is built on needs binning.
The UK establishment is expert at maintaining and deepening the status quo. Anything that puts spanners in the works of that creates opportunities for change - opportunities that are routinely normally blocked off.
I give no shits about milkshakes and crisp shortages, but clearly this becomes a matter of life and death when flu vaccines and care workers are under threat. Having to have faith in the Tories to resolve these issue and quickly is scary.
My scepticism with all the above - now and before the vote - is that while it creates room for improvements, it also creates room for things to get worse, and that massive nationalistic boost Brexit has given the Tories further entrenching them in power + sinking the Labour Left means there's every reason to fear things getting worse.
We are where we are though, and crisis - such as Covid - can lead to opportunity to positively reform society. There's a lot to play for right now, and rather than wishing we never left the EU and pushing that narrative, it would be better to try and push wedges into where those gaps have opened up and concentrate on that. I'm sick to death of the status quo, and while I dont believe Things Cant Get Any Worse - they clearly can - at least there's some kind of change happening and opportunities for deeper change to come.
1. Reform of the common agricultural policy could have huge implications for land use/especially rewilding/increasing biodiversity
could also put a lot of farmers out of action, particularly animal farmers (inc fishers) - much as i sympathise with anyone losing their way of life and work, i see that as a long-term good thing for society
2. The ability of government to subsidise/nationalise via state aid laws
this has yet to be tested against the withdrawal agreement - if something was nationalised that then sold to the EU there might be some offset/trade dispute. maybe not
how much this was ever practically an issue when the UK was in the EU is disputed as it was barely ever tested, nonetheless...
3. Break up the united kingdom - bit unintended, could have been avoided without all the endless Tory South East-centric governments, but looks like too late for that now. Independent nations makes for better democracy and will be a sharp kick to the english establishment
4. Not being part of an apparently ever closer political, economic, diplomatic and military union within the EU is a really good one, though it is far from certain what the near future of the EU is . Good reason to believe it is going to continue to centralise.
A layer of unelected bureaucracy has been removed, and a bureaucracy with a neoliberal agenda and power at that.
Its got to be good for democracy, even if it feels abstract
5. Shortages can have some benefits. The capitalist-consumption model the UK is built on needs binning.
The UK establishment is expert at maintaining and deepening the status quo. Anything that puts spanners in the works of that creates opportunities for change - opportunities that are routinely normally blocked off.
I give no shits about milkshakes and crisp shortages, but clearly this becomes a matter of life and death when flu vaccines and care workers are under threat. Having to have faith in the Tories to resolve these issue and quickly is scary.
My scepticism with all the above - now and before the vote - is that while it creates room for improvements, it also creates room for things to get worse, and that massive nationalistic boost Brexit has given the Tories further entrenching them in power + sinking the Labour Left means there's every reason to fear things getting worse.
We are where we are though, and crisis - such as Covid - can lead to opportunity to positively reform society. There's a lot to play for right now, and rather than wishing we never left the EU and pushing that narrative, it would be better to try and push wedges into where those gaps have opened up and concentrate on that. I'm sick to death of the status quo, and while I dont believe Things Cant Get Any Worse - they clearly can - at least there's some kind of change happening and opportunities for deeper change to come.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
None of that will improve anyone's everyday life.
Independent nations make for better democracy? What, like the United States you mean?
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