A thank you to Brexiteers.
- Thread starter MrSki
- Start date
Colin Hunt
Active Member
I read the SSRN paper that you linked to and agreed with a lot of what she wrote (although I thought that some of her points were a bit too broad, and I remain sceptical about the utility of whiteness studies as an academic discipline in general). What were your thoughts?
As someone who's relatively new to this forum I'm not going to tell anyone where to post stuff. I can't help but think that I'm missing something though as this doesn't seem to have much relevance to Brexit. The fact that you addressed your question to only 'remainers' and haven't given your own view makes me think that this is a set-up for a joke at the expense of other members that I'm not going to understand.
Saul Goodman
It's all good, man
White Mothers Pride - Grammar that up as you will.
Colin Hunt
Active Member
Not to mention the term for ghostwriter was until very recently the same as a racial slur.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
There was more than a little tongue in cheek in where I posted it tbh .
However the article and the replies do deserve a proper discussion .
Is the formula France is institutionally racist therefore it’s food is valid ?
Does this apply to all to all national cuisine especially those who had empires?
Is institutional racism the same as white privilege?
How do those who believe in white privilege theory respond to the national cuisine issue ?
I don’t support white privilege theory.
Perhaps I should start a separate thread on this as , as always with food , it’s a fascinating discussion.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Ax^
Silly Rabbit
ah you must not be posh enough for french food bet you voted for brexit
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
krtek a houby
Merry Xmas!
Fuck off with your virtual signalling
Raheem
Well-Known Member
Only the bathrooms were avocado.
two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
Loose meat
Well-Known Member
Look at this extraordinary employers narrative promoted in The Guardian - no hint of an employment landscape reshaping, retooling, just a plain demand to bring in more and more SE EU (min wage: £3.00-£3.50 an hour) labour - lets keep that downward pressure on wages at all costs!
www.theguardian.com
Combat staff shortages by relaxing Brexit immigration rules, says CBI
Business lobby group warns failure to act will put UK’s economic recovery from Covid crisis at risk
Loose meat
Well-Known Member
It's today's Guardian narrative, not mine
Colin Hunt
Active Member
Yeah I thought so, but thought the article was interesting and deserved a proper discussion. Cheers for the reply. Bear in mind that many of the words I'm about to type may be utter bollocks.
I don't think one thing necessarily follows the other in all cases. As I said earlier, practices around food and eating reinforce power structures in society and in France one of those power structures revolves around race and religion. Focusing just on institutional racism misses the fact that a lot of these practices emanate from outside of formal institutions and instead from social conventions created by the French upper classes. It's that extra-institutional stuff that makes me suggest that practices around food are less fraught with white supremacy in the UK.
Also if we're mentioning institutions, many decisions on French food are in the hands of far right politicians. This again goes beyond institutional racism and into the realm of outright racism.
Many groups and nations have practices around food and eating that reinforce social norms, whether they're related to race, caste, gender, age, etc. Yet food also creates spaces for sociality and sharing.
When it comes to 'national cuisine' in particular, I think France is a special case here for two reasons:
1. I would say very few countries have a national cuisine in the way the French do. The very fact that you used the word cuisine here instead of cooking or food shows the pervasive influence of French food on the debate. What you'd think of as the national cuisine of a country is most often just a pastiche of dishes that aren't particularly distinct (pasties, patties, samosas, empanadas, calzones, knishes, khuushuur and baozi are just dough with local fillings prepared in different ways) because for the majority of human history food was a survival item and not a cultural signifier.
It's when restaurant culture begins that French cuisine begins to market itself. French haute cuisine was for a long time the default high culture food, and remains so when it comes to culinary school training in much of the world. As such there is a certain sense of conservatism around French cooking that there isn't in, say, British cooking. We imported our culinary high culture from France, whereas in France their culinary high culture was and is a form of soft power which is now under threat. It's the conservatism that this loss of soft power brings that creates a lot of the racial issues around French food. For example, chicken tikka masala is widely accepted as a British dish, whereas French recognition of couscous as a food with special status has motivated far-right organising ever since.
2. France's approach to its imperial subjects has always been one of creating Frenchmen (their census doesn't survey people's race or religion), and one of the ways that Frenchness has been created is through the principle of secularism. Other countries that have had empires used racial differences to divide and rule, whereas France engaged in policies of assimilation guided by secularism. Historically, both approaches were rooted in white supremacy, but currently the French approach causes more problems because it creates sites of political contest between Frenchness and otherness in food-related practices. Those same issues exist in the UK but involve much less fraught issues (our national identity is not called into question in the same way if a school offers a kosher/halal option at lunchtime, for example).
Not for me. Institutional racism is one of the elements that causes white privilege, but white privilege can best be described as the bundle of rights that white people have that non-white people of a similar status do not have. This obviously differs massively depending on underlying factors, including class and geography.
You'll have to explain what the national cuisine issue is. For example, I don't think that you can talk about British, Italian or Indian cuisine in the same way that you can talk about French cuisine (although Italian cuisine probably comes closest). As such, I can't really see an issue.
Whenever someone says they don't support something which has a wide range of meanings depending on context, I think it's always best to ask what they mean. With that in mind, what do you see as 'white privilege theory', and why don't you support it?
I wouldn't mind that. It saves hijacking this thread, and I always feel pretty homeless in Brexit discussions.
sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
I know we've talked about the glorious covid response of our govt on this thread before as opposed to the EU.
We now have more cases than the whole EU combined.
We now have more cases than the whole EU combined.
Artaxerxes
Look out, he's got a gnu!
MrSki
Who am I to say you're wrong
Better than the remaining EU put together. Still vaccine rollout & all that.
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