9/11 The Conspiracy Files
- Thread starter Maggot
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editor said:
It was a good programme. There remain some open questions especially re the failure of the CIA to tip off the FBI that known AQ operatives were at large, but I didn't learn anything new.
I think that conspiracy theories really need some evidence before they can be taken too seriously. If there are questions they should be asked; the trouble with conspiraloons is that they answer all the questions with heeps of completely made up stuff and then ignore the evidence. So if there are worthwhile questions to seek answers to, any reference to them becomes discredited by association.
I was quite pleased that the prog made passing reference as to why so many people take conspiracy theories seriously. The establishment politicians have lied and lied and lied. Why should we believe anything they say? Good point I think. What it doesn't go anywhere near to explaining is why should we instead believe some internet geek with a run away imagination instead!
9/11 has been used by Bush and the neo-cons to pursue an imperialist agenda; it does not follow that they engineered it. It is a leap of faith - there's no evidence. There is evidence of real conspiracy - 'sexed up' dossiers, fabricated evidence of Saddam/AQ links, weapons of mass destruction etc etc. For all the faults of our media (including the oh so conservative BBC), these lies have been exposed. Yet we are expected to believe that there is a watertight monolithic conspiracy of such magnitude as 9/11? Not trusting our rulers does not mean that any old nonsense of an explanation will do!
skunkboy69
Reverend of Eternal Light
Nothing new in the program.Be prepared for next weeks tho.David Kelly LOL
untethered
For industry & decency
editor said:
No, you're just keeping your powder dry for a dramatic public conversion. Long-time sceptic finally seeing the light has so much more impact than people that believed the "truth" all along.
jiggajagga
Judge_Mental
editor said:
When I spotted this on TV last night my first thoughts were....Oh! Oh! Eds going to do a bit of banning on Monday!!
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
Not even my beloved Book/film/wring geeks forum is safe from the lizards
editor
hiraethified
This is the point for me where I really got fed up with indymedia:Tom A said:
https://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/01/359325.html
Since when is some bitter loon criticising this site 'news'?
Tom A
Goat among sheep
editor said:
Hell yeah, the BBC is the most evil, insidious tool of Government/Illuminanti propaganda known to man! Fox News is a harbinger of social justice comapared to Auntie Beeb! (or so say quite a few people who have posted to Indymedia)
In fact the Sheffield Indymedia collective actually plugged the 9/11 "Truth" movment on an article on their front page, and AFAIK acutally did a film night about 9/11 not so long ago:
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/sheffield/
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/sheffield/2006/09/350617.html
I used to moan and complain about the vairing quality of the newswire, but now I am content just to find the choice bit of decent news (which there still can be), and rely on additional sources for news.
ska invita
back on the other side
AS someone who was hoping that the BBC would put the definitive anti-conspiracy case I thought it was rubbish. It breezed across key points, completely ignored many others and has actually made me more sceptical on certain other points, such as Building 7.Groucho said:
Considering how important it is to put the conpiracy case to rest it seems that no one is ever going to be able or willing to really do it.
The Popular Mechanics boys who are used at the start of the show just dont make a good case, as I mentioned earlier, and as everyone (including editor) admited in a thread on the subject. I was excited by their review, started a thread on it, closer exmaination was dissapointing: we were hoping they would seal the anti-con case then and they failed.
The films spent the longest part on the conspiracy that 4,000 Jews were evacuated before hand - considering how imortant it is to debunk the conspiracy why spend time on this ridiculous claim that only racists make? I guess to slur the other conpiracy theroies by assosciation. Weak.
Likewise the man with the most airtime in the show was some Hollywood director, with X-Files music in the background wasting the valuable time of the show to eulogise about how people who believe in this stuff can't deal with the reality, and some psycho-bable about stories and acceptance - purile and patronising.
Here is what the show concluded that has added to my doubts:
- Building 7 clearly had all the hallmarks of a controled explosion and floor 23 was a CIA HQ. A preliminary gov report said it was brought down by fire, but that this was nonetheless "highly unlikely" (impossible). A five year ongoing government report, still unpublished, is not expected to find any other cause of destruction other than a fire on one of the floors. For me as someone on the fence that is clearly sus - buildings like that don't fall down in a controlled explosion stylee (as the beeb man kept pointing out) because of one fire, and the BBC show made that point without any refutation.
- The CIA continues to refuse to show the video footage that shows the Pentagon crash. The BBC went thoroughly over the 4 frame footage available and clearly couldn't show any plane - although the attempt to draw one in was quite comic. THe whole Pentagon thing could be laed to rest with that footage - CIA says they wont release, admiting they have more footage.
- THe ultimate conclusion the Beeb made was that there was a conspiracy after 9/11 to cover it up by the FBI, CIA and government, but not before. This statement was made despite failing to really nail doubts about a pre 9/11 conspiracy. There is no doubt that there was a concerted effort to hide the events and block inquiries at every turn after the attack, and the film finished on this note.
Loads of other stuff wasnt even mentioned, PNAC's prophesising of a Pearl Harbour style event (the document having been so right about other US future events!) , the Presidents reactions and contradictory claims about knowing what when, the channging of the law days earlier giving Cheney control over calling up the fighters, the dodgy car with a flight manual and passport etc, etc, etc, I'm afraid as someone who is still looking dispationately at the evidence from both sides I have yet to be convinced that there was nothing suspect that happened - certainly this film didnt close the case.
jiggajagga
Judge_Mental
Anyone see Loose Change?
Its all real I tells ya!!
Its all real I tells ya!!
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
And what would they be then? Wearing your 'demolition expert' hat, what exactly are these 'hallmarks'? I'd also ask how you think that the demolition crew managed to sneak in all the 000s of metres of cabling required to wire a building for CD, let alone drill the holes into the concrete over 00s of locations in the building while it was occupied?
Why is it you find it so hard to believe that a bunch of Islamists couldn't do this on their own, and that it simply had to be run and managed by the USG?
editor
hiraethified
If you believe that WTC7 was prewired with thousands of invisible charges and miles of invisible cables, then you have to buy into the whole 9/11 conspiracy. Unless you're going to argue that it had been invisible prewired just in case a passing terrorist-piloted aircraft might come by some time in the future.niksativa said:
Mind you, this quaint notion that 'they' would need an old fashioned office space to act as an Evil HQ that had to be blown sky high afterwards is not without amusement.
Badger Kitten
oof
That 9/11 scholars for thruuth chap came over as a foaming, ranting loon.
Good.
Good.
ska invita
back on the other side
I dont believe anything. Did you not see the BBC show? Im just reporting back what they said.editor said:
The BBC made the point, not me - I hadn't actually paid attention to Building 7 stuff before - they said the official cause appears to be a fire on one floor, however the building came down as would be expected in a controlled explosion, and the official preliminary report has grave doubts that a fire could do this. A full inquiry (now five years long) has yet to release its findings (but it is not expected to say it was controled, natch.)
Dont shout at me - this a thread about a BBC film, and that was what the film said. Watch it and you'll see...
Andy the Don
Wise men say only fools..
Funniest was the lads from Loose Change stating (without irony) that the engineers from Popular Mechanics did not know what they were talking about. Whilst a bunch of slackers from some spit & daub town in upper NY state. Well, hell they must be experts in everything from aeronautics to structural engineering..
It does amaze me that some people who are obviously as intelligent as Jazzz(concert pianist, Oxbridge graduate) can believe a load of guff such as loose change, Joe vialls, David Shyler & David Icke produce.
It does amaze me that some people who are obviously as intelligent as Jazzz(concert pianist, Oxbridge graduate) can believe a load of guff such as loose change, Joe vialls, David Shyler & David Icke produce.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
nik, you still haven't given us your credentials for knowing what the hallmarks of a CD are, nor how said demolition charges were planted.
We went through it on the other thread though, where we found quotes from firemen saying there was substantial damage to the south side of the building and major fires and videos that showed substantial fires on most floors of the building. The BBC program shouldn't be taken as a sole source, it was trying to cover a massive subject in the space of one hour.niksativa said:
Mrs Miggins
Eternal
niksativa said:
They didn't say that at all. They said that the entire structure of the building would have been seriously weakened by the impact of two passenger jets followed by the collapse of two enormous buildings right next door. Coupled with a massive fire.
Funny how people take completely different things from the same source innit? I don't remember the programme dwelling for more than about 60s on the 4,000 jews staying home from work thing nor do I remember the film director being on for that long. Hey ho.
editor
hiraethified
I saw the film, thanks.niksativa said:
Could you elaborate what these "hallmarks" of a controlled demolition look like please and perhaps explain how thousands of explosives charges might have been secretly placed, because you definitely need them for a CD.
You are aware that a great chunk of the building had already been taken out by the collapse of the WTC, yes?
Megaton
Resident D'N'B DJ
I thought it was an excellent programme. I was worried that it would just be another unbalanced platform for these 9/11 fruitloops - especially with the styling and shooting of the programme with the obligatory shaky-cam, "X-Files" type music and computer bleeps. However it did'nt disappoint, debunking these deluded myths with reasoned evidence from professionals, who were experts in their selected fields and witnesses of the events.
I thought that even without the programme taking on and challenging these myths the viewer could see just how deluded and in many cases - patronising the conspiraloons were. Especially that geeky kid and his sad little frat club, who made the "Loose Change" film (which is little more than a badly made YouTube video with a rap music score and badly animated Flash graphics) - who were the most closed-minded and patronising of the lot. I can't remember the amount of times he said "maaan" in one sentence, but it was a lot.
I especially enjoyed the input by the chap who helped wrote the X-Files - psychoanalysing and debunking these myths as ideal fodder for people who wrap themselves up in these myths as they are looking for someone to blame and find the real truth not very compatible with their sad little world.
I also applauded the way in which the programme highlighted the real conspiracy behind 9/11 - that the US government tried to cover up its incompetance in handing the situation after the event.
All together, a well-put together programme.
I thought that even without the programme taking on and challenging these myths the viewer could see just how deluded and in many cases - patronising the conspiraloons were. Especially that geeky kid and his sad little frat club, who made the "Loose Change" film (which is little more than a badly made YouTube video with a rap music score and badly animated Flash graphics) - who were the most closed-minded and patronising of the lot. I can't remember the amount of times he said "maaan" in one sentence, but it was a lot.
I especially enjoyed the input by the chap who helped wrote the X-Files - psychoanalysing and debunking these myths as ideal fodder for people who wrap themselves up in these myths as they are looking for someone to blame and find the real truth not very compatible with their sad little world.
I also applauded the way in which the programme highlighted the real conspiracy behind 9/11 - that the US government tried to cover up its incompetance in handing the situation after the event.
All together, a well-put together programme.
9/11 was a day of miracles. The first three buildings of steel to suffer complete collapse.
Never mind the size of the hole in the Pentagon, they ignored, or failed to explain, why the aircraft did a HIGH SPEED turn rather than a straight shot at the Pentagon - therefore hitting the side with less people ( due to renovation work ).
It is said if you go into town you are picked up on 40 different CCTV cameras. But in the capitol city of the USA, not a single camera filmed any jumbo jet flying across the carpark of the Pentagon. There were five full-sized CCTV cameras pointing down from the side of the Pentagon hit by the plane alone!
Never mind the size of the hole in the Pentagon, they ignored, or failed to explain, why the aircraft did a HIGH SPEED turn rather than a straight shot at the Pentagon - therefore hitting the side with less people ( due to renovation work ).
It is said if you go into town you are picked up on 40 different CCTV cameras. But in the capitol city of the USA, not a single camera filmed any jumbo jet flying across the carpark of the Pentagon. There were five full-sized CCTV cameras pointing down from the side of the Pentagon hit by the plane alone!
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