8 dead after crowd surge at US festival

[Gromit]

Which is utterly stupid. If a crowd starts crushing or stampeding, then there's not going to be anything that a handful of cops on the scene are going to be able to do to stop it. In fact if anything, given how poorly trained US cops are, chances are they might panic, start shooting (because as well as being poorly trained, they're often itching to murder someone, preferably someone black) and make the situation even worse.

I would challenge any such idiot to explain exactly how a few cops are going to stop an already-moving crowd of hundreds to thousands of people.

You can't stop a stampede that's started.
You stop it from happening in the first place.

Which is, I believe, how people are suggesting better resourced policing might have helped.

 

[Sweet FA]

I went to Monsters Of Rock at Donnington in 1998. It was Gnus and Roses first UK gig.

When they came on I was halfway back in a crowd of 100k. The crowd surged forced me forwards about 50m and I lost all my friends I was with. Turned out two people were killed in the crush.

The gig continued (pre mobile phone days etc).

When Iron Maiden came on, after about five songs there was another swell. They stopped the music and Bruce Dickinson stood there and said (and I remember it so clearly)

"OK everyone. We won't play another note until you all take two paces back.".And then waited until the crowd did.

By then it was on the news but we had no idea. My parents were frantic but had no way of knowing. I eventually found my mates back at the tent. We left the next day and when I got home I found one very relieved mum and one very relieved dad.

I was there too. We were off to the right not far from the front, maybe 10m from the stage. When GnR came on and the crush started, I was separated from my friends as my feet weren't touching the ground, I was just swept forward by the pressure of the crowd. People were falling over and being dragged up again. I remember it being good humoured though. There was a lot of laughter and chat about how fucked up it was.

I managed to get out a few songs in; a lot of people were trying to make their way out & it had got nastier by then - punches thrown as people were panicking to get out. I saw someone get repeatedly headbutted right in the face but unable to get their hands free to fight back or protect themselves.

They announced the deaths as the crowd was making its way out at the end of the night.

 

[AverageJoe]

I was there too. We were off to the right not far from the front, maybe 10m from the stage. When GnR came on and the crush started, I was separated from my friends as my feet weren't touching the ground, I was just swept forward by the pressure of the crowd. People were falling over and being dragged up again. I remember it being good humoured though. There was a lot of laughter and chat about how fucked up it was.

I managed to get out a few songs in; a lot of people were trying to make their way out & it had got nastier by then - punches thrown as people were panicking to get out. I saw someone get repeatedly headbutted right in the face but unable to get their hands free to fight back or protect themselves.

They announced the deaths as the crowd was making its way out at the end of the night.

It was totally this.

Not to denigrate it with crudity or anything but what a gig though.

 

[editor]

Scott reportedly went to a party after the concert but left when he heard about the deaths, which would seem to back up claims that he wasn't made aware of the scale of the tragedy.

Travis Scott went to a party after Astroworld but was unaware of the tragedy, source says

"When someone told Travis at Dave & Buster’s about the tragedy, he immediately left the party," the sources said.

www.nbcnews.com

He didn't ask what the ambulance was doing in front of the stage?

 

[BigTom]

I’m wondering why personal responsibility is being leveraged here. If he was the gig organiser than fair enough. But I’m fairly sure that on all the previous occasions this has happened that the legal mechanisms and media hasn’t gone directly for the throat of the artist.

It's actually his festival, he's not just a performer. Live Nation are also involved in running it this year but it's not their event, it's his.

I have no idea about the practical reality of how much involvement he has in organising it but he's not just a performer, has run this since 2018 and has an album of the same name. It's his festival regardless of whether he ever sat down in any production meetings or not.

 

[killer b]

It's actually his festival, he's not just a performer. Live Nation are also involved in running it this year but it's not their event, it's his.

I have no idea about the practical reality of how much involvement he has in organising it but he's not just a performer, has run this since 2018 and has an album of the same name. It's his festival regardless of whether he ever sat down in any production meetings or not.

I think it was probably reasonable for him to assume that the nuts and bolts infrastructure and safety stuff was being dealt with by Live Nation, the biggest and most experienced concert organisers in the world. He probably didn't have much of an overview on how many portaloos they'd booked either.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

It's actually his festival, he's not just a performer. Live Nation are also involved in running it this year but it's not their event, it's his.

I have no idea about the practical reality of how much involvement he has in organising it but he's not just a performer, has run this since 2018 and has an album of the same name. It's his festival regardless of whether he ever sat down in any production meetings or not.

But the same would be true for the Stones, and Pink Floyd would it not? You organise the gigs yourself (or via a company you own) to maximise profits.

 

[Gromit]

Creamfields was the last big independent dance festival left and Live Nation turned up and offered them loads of money to sell it.

They did.

I didn't go to the next one.

It was a proper mess. Proper mess. Much schadenfreude from me (towards Live and not my many friends who stlll went)

The difference between how Cream managed things and Live manage things is huge. It's was miles better before. Speaking as a festie worker and a punter.

 

[BigTom]

I think it was probably reasonable for him to assume that the nuts and bolts infrastructure and safety stuff was being dealt with by Live Nation, the biggest and most experienced concert organisers in the world. He probably didn't have much of an overview on how many portaloos they'd booked either.

Thing is we don't know how involved he actually is/was. If he had any control over budgets then he has some responsibility for everything. I can totally see him being involved in stage design/setup and objecting to things like a bigger pit or a run from stage to front of house that would split up the crowd.

But the same would be true for the Stones, and Pink Floyd would it not? You organise the gigs yourself (or via a company you own) to maximise profits.

I have no idea what the reaction at the time was like to these two things tbh, I think the floyd one is different because it's a seating collapse and clearly the contractor's domain, I also doubt the concert continued after that happened. Stones yes I think that is a good comparison. Nobody went after pearl jam after roskilde but that's very clearly them just as a booked performer, I have absolutely no idea who was playing at Love Parade in 2010 when deaths happened there either.

From a legal pov, suing Travis Scott I think is right as it's his festival - Live Nation as well, but Scott is a legit target. As far as media/commenting goes I've no doubt that if this was a white rock and roll band/singer there would not be the same level of vitriol towards them but if there'd been deaths at Oasis Knebworth and Oasis had continued playing I think they would have received some flak for it, it's not totally out of nowhere that Scott is being hammered on this (and his behaviour at the gig with the ambulance in the crowd is fucked)

 

[Teaboy]

, I have absolutely no idea who was playing at Love Parade in 2010 when deaths happened there either.

from memory I think the tragic scenes at the Love Parade were pinch points at access routes rather than at the stages. I seem to remember a key access route was a small narrow pedestrian tunnel.

 

[IC3D]

Don't want to pile on hate but the clips showing him a few feet from lifeless bodies and people screaming for help are pretty damning, getting the crowd to assault a kid in the crowd and flipping a finger at an ambulance hint at being a twat. The only defence would be assuming a riot if he stopped as seems to be a trend at US festivals

 

[killer b]

Thing is we don't know how involved he actually is/was. If he had any control over budgets then he has some responsibility for everything. I can totally see him being involved in stage design/setup and objecting to things like a bigger pit or a run from stage to front of house that would split up the crowd.

We don't know for sure, and if it turns out he personally made decisions that resulted in a catastrophic failure of the crowd control measures that were in place then I'll agree he has some responsibility - but at the same time, it's pretty technical stuff - if he was pushing for laxer measures than were necessary, Live Nation should had told him 'no, this is what's necessary', and pulled the plug if he wasn't prepared to do it.

There's much being made about how Adele at Glastonbury, as if she did all that stuff because she's a good egg - that's surely not what happened. She did all that stuff because she'd been told by the production team 'if there's a medical emergency up front, this is what we need you to do'. and then when there was a medical emergency, she did it because she was told to, not out of the goodness of her heart. Similar briefings must surely have been had with Scott - if they weren't, why not? And if they were, and then the procedures weren't brought into play, why not?

This kind of stuff is nuts and bolts technical stuff, and it really shouldn't be something that the star who's name is attached to the festival to pull in punters has any real input or sway over, other than to be told 'this is what you need to do if this happens'

 

[BigTom]

We don't know for sure, and if it turns out he personally made decisions that resulted in a catastrophic failure of the crowd control measures that were in place then I'll agree he has some responsibility - but at the same time, it's pretty technical stuff - if he was pushing for laxer measures than were necessary, Live Nation should had told him 'no, this is what's necessary', and pulled the plug if he wasn't prepared to do it.

There's much being made about how Adele at Glastonbury, as if she did all that stuff because she's a good egg - that's surely not what happened. She did all that stuff because she'd been told by the production team 'if there's a medical emergency up front, this is what we need you to do'. and then when there was a medical emergency, she did it because she was told to, not out of the goodness of her heart. Similar briefings must surely have been had with Scott - if they weren't, why not? And if they were, and then the procedures weren't brought into play, why not?

This kind of stuff is nuts and bolts technical stuff, and it really shouldn't be something that the star who's name is attached to the festival to pull in punters has any real input or sway over, other than to be told 'this is what you need to do if this happens'

Totally agree.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

And on that note re Adele there is now a video up on the daily fail website showing a few clips of Scott at different concerts stopping his performance and asking folk to move aside for medics. Won’t link to it for obvs reasons. And I’m seeing it reported that he did actually stop this gig at one point as well; not sure when? Bit confusing. Haven’t gone through the footage myself can’t stomach it, so I’m unclear on the details.

 

[editor]

There's much being made about how Adele at Glastonbury, as if she did all that stuff because she's a good egg - that's surely not what happened. She did all that stuff because she'd been told by the production team 'if there's a medical emergency up front, this is what we need you to do'. and then when there was a medical emergency, she did it because she was told to, not out of the goodness of her heart.

How can you possibly know that?

And why wasn't Scott told the same (or even take an interest, given his previous record and the fact that - unlike Adele - he wasn't just a performer, he was running the entire show)?

 

[IC3D]

He fucking stopped the concert cos a kid stole his shoe when he stage dived into the crowd and got them to beat them up. He's clearly capable of stopping his concert. The kids screaming for help are easily in earshot for those who don't wish to view the clips.

 

[killer b]

How can you possibly know that?

I'm not privy to the risk assessment they did for Glastonbury festival's pyramid stage, but I think it's safe to assume in the 'what to do if there's a medical emergency in the crowd' column it doesn't say 'leave it up to the act to decide what to do'

 

[editor]

I'm not privy to the risk assessment they did for Glastonbury festival's pyramid stage, but I think it's safe to assume in the 'what to do if there's a medical emergency in the crowd' column it doesn't say 'leave it up to the act to decide what to do'

But if that's what Scott's risk assessment said then he's got blood on his hands.
Update:

A 56-page event operations plan included protocols for a number of dangerous scenarios, including an active shooter, terrorist threat, and severe weather - but nothing about crowd surges.

Travis Scott: Astroworld festival emergency plans did not include any detail on crowd surges

The family of a nine-year-old boy said he had been placed in a medically induced coma after getting injured in the crush.

news.sky.com

 

[editor]

And here comes the fucking idiots

Travis Scott: Astroworld conspiracy theory TikTok videos taken down

Views have been taken down which falsely link the Astroworld disaster with Satanism.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Yossarian]

Police said they decided against stopping the show because they were worried there would be a riot - it's not clear yet whether they also decided that Scott shouldn't be informed about the casualties.

 

[editor]

Yep.

Speaking to NBC's Today show, when asked if Scott should have stopped his show, Houston fire chief Samuel Pena said: "Absolutely. Everybody at that event has a responsibility, starting from the artist... down."

He added: "At one point, there was an ambulance that was trying to make its way through the crowd. And he's got, the artist has, command of that crowd.

"The artist, if he notices something that's going on, he can certainly pause that performance, turn on the lights and say, 'Hey, we're not going to continue until this thing is resolved.'"

During his set, Scott could be heard at one point asking security to help someone in the crowd who had collapsed - but he then carried on.

Travis Scott should have stopped his Astroworld show where eight people died, Houston fire chief says

During his set, Scott could be heard at one point asking security to help someone in the crowd who had collapsed - but he then carried on his set as emergency vehicles made their way into the crowd.

news.sky.com

 

[Yossarian]

Something definitely needs to change in Houston if the deal with concerts is that the performer has more authority than the fire department.

 

[killer b]

But if that's what Scott's risk assessment said then he's got blood on his hands.
Update:

I don't agree - crowd safety is a specialist area, for which you engage professionals who know what they're doing. If you're working with the biggest concert promoter in the world, it's reasonable to assume that the specialists they employ to carry out the various specialist functions actually know what they're doing and can be trusted to carry out the job competently.

All this stuff about how he should have stopped the concert ignores what it's actually like to be onstage in front of a crowd that size, how hard it is for the performer to assess how serious a problem is. In crowds like this, lots of things can happen - people faint, people freak out, people fall over and hurt themselves. Most of the time these things can be dealt with without stopping the concert, and it's understandable that without hearing anything about the severity of the situation from the production team he assumed this was one of those things.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

I don't agree - crowd safety is a specialist area, for which you engage professionals who know what they're doing. If you're working with the biggest concert promoter in the world, it's reasonable to assume that the specialists they employ to carry out the various specialist functions actually know what they're doing and can be trusted to carry out the job competently.

All this stuff about how he should have stopped the concert ignores what it's actually like to be onstage in front of a crowd that size, how hard it is for the performer to assess how serious a problem is. In crowds like this, lots of things can happen - people faint, people freak out, people fall over and hurt themselves. Most of the time these things can be dealt with without stopping the concert, and it's understandable that without hearing anything about the severity of the situation from the production team he assumed this was one of those things.

Exactly, and the clips that are filmed from Travis’ perspective (or close to it, those not filmed by the crowd) show this clearly- you can’t see or hear a thing. It also looks like he is about to tell the audience to move for the ambulance, then is distracted by someone talking to him through the earpiece possibly? It is really going to come down to what he was told.

 

[editor]

I don't agree - crowd safety is a specialist area, for which you engage professionals who know what they're doing. If you're working with the biggest concert promoter in the world, it's reasonable to assume that the specialists they employ to carry out the various specialist functions actually know what they're doing and can be trusted to carry out the job competently.

All this stuff about how he should have stopped the concert ignores what it's actually like to be onstage in front of a crowd that size, how hard it is for the performer to assess how serious a problem is. In crowds like this, lots of things can happen - people faint, people freak out, people fall over and hurt themselves. Most of the time these things can be dealt with without stopping the concert, and it's understandable that without hearing anything about the severity of the situation from the production team he assumed this was one of those things.

You see an ambulance rolling up in front of your stage and you don't even ask your stage manager what's going on? Or stop the music to ensure its safe passage through a packed crowd?

OK, right.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

You see an ambulance rolling up in front of your stage and you don't even ask your stage manager what's going on? Or stop the music to ensure its safe passage through a packed crowd?

OK, right.

I assumed that with all the various lighting it could be difficult to see what’s happening in the crowd as it’s all basically pointing at your face. Also hearing stuff over the PA. So that’s two senses gone.

 

[8ball]

I assumed that with all the various lighting it could be difficult to see what’s happening in the crowd as it’s all basically pointing at your face. Also hearing stuff over the PA. So that’s two senses gone.

Certainly can be. Can also be oddly clear and quiet on stage, depending on the setup.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Certainly can be. Can also be oddly clear and quiet on stage, depending on the setup.

I’m sure editor has more experience on this than I do. But if you combine lighting, sound and concentrating on performing your act… just think we should be generous until facts are known.

 

[editor]

I assumed that with all the various lighting it could be difficult to see what’s happening in the crowd as it’s all basically pointing at your face. Also hearing stuff over the PA. So that’s two senses gone.

Adele managed at the far bigger Glastonbury, as have many other acts in the past. And if seeing a fucking ambulance with its lights on coming up close to the stage isn't enough to suggest that something is seriously amiss, perhaps this guy should have rethink before creating any more of his dangerous festivals.

 

[killer b]

Adele managed at the far bigger Glastonbury, as have many other acts in the past.

according to the digital spy story you quoted, Adele was alerted to the ill fan by her production manager who came out on stage to stop the performance?