7/7 Home Office 'narrative' leaked: Iraq led to July 7

[scalyboy]

Actually, why not go and have a laugh?

BK, if there are posters on that board who are prepared to engage you in debate, then fair enough. Good luck! Personally I gave up (not with that particular board, but with 2 other conspiracy-oriented boards who get a mention on nineeleven.co.uk).

I was naive enough to think they were a forum for discussion - specifically I was intrigued by the seeming anomaly of the cancelled-trains-from-Luton business, and had proved to my own satisfaction that it would have been perfectly possible for the 4 bombers to have reached Kings X in time. (rather sadly, I had spent some time at Luton station with a stopwatch, printouts from websites etc - too much time on my hands!?).

Anyway, after posting said 'findings', I was rather taken aback at the abuse: GCHQ stooge, Tony Blairs 'fag' etc etc.
(The irony being that I had arrived at such sites with a fairly pro-conspiracy attitude - having many questions regarding what I thought at the time were anomalies in the offical story).

It seems to me that a lot of people on such sites have an entrenched position which they do not want to question. Maybe not nineeleven.co.uk, but the ones I came across were not really forums for debate. I was still prepared to be proved wrong, but I didn't get the impression they were addressing the points I made. CCTV images were 'fakes', anyone agreeing with the 'official' position were MI5 and so forth, it got silly in the end...that and the abuse meted out caused me to give up in despair!

 

[jæd]

I have become used to the levels of abuse that are regularly dished out on this forum so it's just par for the course of venturing on here. Childish and pathetic given the seriousness of what is being discussed.

I'll take you seriously if you give me a credible response to Scallyboys post about it being entirly provable that the bombers got there...

 

[Badger Kitten]

Bk & Jaed:

I have become used to the levels of abuse that are regularly dished out on this forum so it's just par for the course of venturing on here. Childish and pathetic given the seriousness of what is being discussed.

You had the opportunity to state the above BK when I introduced myself in an open and friendly manner to you, but that would have required you looking me in the eye and saying these things, which you didn't do.

The other points you didn't answer were:

I have nothing to say to you in public, Prole after the way you have attacked me and twisted my words and make countless insinuations and smears. In fact, some might say you were lucky you didn't get a slap, but I don't believe in violence, luckily for you. I did look at you in the eyes, and I hope that you saw the contempt in which I hold you, mixed with pity.

And then I went to the pub with my friends from the train and we all read your pamphlet and we laughed and laughed and laughed.

 

[Badger Kitten]

BK, if there are posters on that board who are prepared to engage you in debate, then fair enough. Good luck! Personally I gave up (not with that particular board, but with 2 other conspiracy-oriented boards who get a mention on nineeleven.co.uk).

I was naive enough to think they were a forum for discussion - specifically I was intrigued by the seeming anomaly of the cancelled-trains-from-Luton business, and had proved to my own satisfaction that it would have been perfectly possible for the 4 bombers to have reached Kings X in time. (rather sadly, I had spent some time at Luton station with a stopwatch, printouts from websites etc - too much time on my hands!?).

Anyway, after posting said 'findings', I was rather taken aback at the abuse: GCHQ stooge, Tony Blairs 'fag' etc etc.
(The irony being that I had arrived at such sites with a fairly pro-conspiracy attitude - having many questions regarding what I thought at the time were anomalies in the offical story).

It seems to me that a lot of people on such sites have an entrenched position which they do not want to question. Maybe not nineeleven.co.uk, but the ones I came across were not really forums for debate. I was still prepared to be proved wrong, but I didn't get the impression they were addressing the points I made. CCTV images were 'fakes', anyone agreeing with the 'official' position were MI5 and so forth, it got silly in the end...that and the abuse meted out caused me to give up in despair!

They are entrenched. Quite bright and committed, but utterly stuck on this idea that it is all a conspiracy. I went onto their site when I found my blog account twisted to support a lie about no bombs but power surges in the trian, on arriving at the site where some fool had done this to my account, I then discovered more posts claiming those killed in the tavistock bus bomb were 'actors and stuntmen'. This infuriated me, and I challenged them. Then I discover a huge thread devoted to witless accusations that I am government agent etcetc, so I challeneged that as well. I thought contributions to a thread about what 'Rachel' believes and whom she is from rachel herself might be pertinent. It's no good: they are quite, quite mad. And so now I just laugh. Because what else can you do? It's not even worth engaging with them: they are findementalists with their own world view to protect and promote and their own reasons for beleiving in such nonsense and to engage gives them a credibility that they do not merit.

Interesting that you got hit with the 'stooge, m15 etc etc' insults as well. Makes me feel a bit better!They are funny fish, and now it turns out, not even original in their accusations. Hey ho. Best left to stew, I think, they are harmless, I beleive, although can be verbally very aggressive.

 

[Azrael23]

laughed and laughed eh? How touching.... Your definitely highlighting the human aspect of the story.

So what do you think about witnesses who saw that the explosions had come from beneath the train? Are they liars?

What about the 9/11 or Madrid-like drills that "just happened" to be running at the same time as the attack, simulating exactly what happened in the attack? Coincedence?!

Do you believe in a full public investigation rather than a govt written narrative, thats "accidentally" been leaked?

Do you have any questions regarding Haroon Aswat being a security services agent? The ringleader works for our security services, not that this little fact is often discussed.

What about the bomber who was confronted outside canary wharf, why no mention of him?

 

[Prole]

I'll take you seriously if you give me a credible response to Scallyboys post about it being entirly provable that the bombers got there...

I'm more than happy to read his research. I notice that he does not include nineeleven.co.uk as forum where he felt the views were entrenched.

 

[jæd]

I'm more than happy to read his research. I notice that he does not include nineeleven.co.uk as forum where he felt the views were entrenched.

And what is your response to his research...? He says it is possible to take the trains that the bombers were supposed to. You say it isn't... One of you must be wrong...

 

[Badger Kitten]

@Azrael One witness, Bruce the dancer person, quoted in the cambridge news. Versus people who were on the Piccadilly line train and who've seen the hole in the floor and the ceiling, on a return visot organised by Fam,ily Liason Officers, and also people who were on the Aldgate train, whom I have spoken to, and the police, whom I have spoken to. I know who I believe. And of course, the evidence of my own eyes is handy too - the explosion, the flash was in my carriage not under it.

Visor/Peter Power drills comprehensively debunked here. by C4 investigative news team. But don't let that stop you believing the nonsense. Channel 4 are of course well-known stooges of the Powers that be, as are all media and everyone except you and your mates, hmmm?

I've been campaigning for a public enquiry for months and am publicly seen on TV and in the media sqaying so, so yes, keep up.

Haroon Aswat I think was an Al Q op who was flipped after capture as is usual after interroagtion and in plea bargaining, see Barbar @ Crevice trial.

Email rumours from canary Wharf of police shooting a bomber have been investiaged and deemed bollocks. FFS, half the bloody press are there and hundreds of people with camera phones working in tower blocks. I suppose they have all been silenced by the lizards or something. Everyone has, haven't they? It's all a Giant Lie. blah blah blah.

 

[laptop]

Bruce the dancer person

He was a dancer? I missed that.

There was me thinking he was a materials engineer with a sound grasp of the counter-intuitive things that metals can do when they're hit very, very hard. (Like bouncing off the much solider metal below, perhaps?)

 

[Azrael23]

@Azrael One witness, Bruce the dancer person, quoted in the cambridge news. Versus people who were on the Piccadilly line train and who've seen the hole in the floor and the ceiling, on a return visot organised by Fam,ily Liason Officers, and also people who were on the Aldgate train, whom I have spoken to, and the police, whom I have spoken to. I know who I believe. And of course, the evidence of my own eyes is handy too - the explosion, the flash was in my carriage not under it.

Visor/Peter Power drills comprehensively debunked here. by C4 investigative news team. But don't let that stop you believing the nonsense. Channel 4 are of course well-known stooges of the Powers that be, as are all media and everyone except you and your mates, hmmm?

I've been campaigning for a public enquiry for months and am publicly seen on TV and in the media sqaying so, so yes, keep up.

Haroon Aswat I think was an Al Q op who was flipped after capture as is usual after interroagtion and in plea bargaining, see Barbar @ Crevice trial.

Email rumours from canary Wharf of police shooting a bomber have been investiaged and deemed bollocks. FFS, half the bloody press are there and hundreds of people with camera phones working in tower blocks. I suppose they have all been silenced by the lizards or something. Everyone has, haven't they? It's all a Giant Lie. blah blah blah.

I`m going out now but trust me, I CAN`T WAIT to reply to this.

 

[Prole]

And what is your response to his research...? He says it is possible to take the trains that the bombers were supposed to. You say it isn't... One of you must be wrong...

I haven't read it, send me a link and I will.

 

[detective-boy]

56 people died and 4 of those may well be innocent.

And what exactly were the other 52 guilty of ...

 

[jæd]

I haven't read it, send me a link and I will.

...specifically I was intrigued by the seeming anomaly of the cancelled-trains-from-Luton business, and had proved to my own satisfaction that it would have been perfectly possible for the 4 bombers to have reached Kings X in time. (rather sadly, I had spent some time at Luton station with a stopwatch, printouts from websites etc - too much time on my hands!?).

Anyway, after posting said 'findings', I was rather taken aback at the abuse...

You can ask ScallyBoy were he posted it... But what is your response to this...? I'm surprised that in your quest for the truth you haven't made your own journey to see if it do-able.

 

[Jazzz]

Well I'm glad you now recognise the 'sceptics' as being harmless BK - perhaps you may eventually realise that we are simply all on the same side, in fact.

Doubtless you have the same feelings about 9/11 as to 7/7? Here's a comment from a 9/11 widow, in a not dissimilar position to yourself.

“Conspiracy theories,” says Lorie Van Auken with a sigh. She’s one of the “Jersey girls” who pushed the Bush administration to convene the 9/11 Commission. Her husband, a Cantor Fitzgerald employee, was killed in the North Tower. She says, “That’s why we demanded the commission, so there wouldn’t be any conspiracy theories.
..
"At first, we widows didn’t want to be seen with conspiracy people. But they kept showing up. They cared more than those supposedly doing the investigating. If you ask me, they’re just Americans, looking for the truth, which is supposed to be our right."

911blogger.com

 

[scalyboy]

I'm more than happy to read his research. I notice that he does not include nineeleven.co.uk as forum where he felt the views were entrenched.

Prole, here's one of my posts (on the Team8 board) from last September:


"I went to King's Cross and Luton this weekend. Here's what I found.

Firstly, considering whether the bombers could have taken the train that departed Luton at 7.42 and arrived at King's Cross at 8.39, I agree that this is pretty much impossible. It took me 6 minutes to get from the Thameslink platform to the Circle Line platform, and the journey to Edgware Rd was another 7 minutes. The corresponding eastbound journey half way between Liverpool St/Aldgate would, I presume, take even longer, as it is half a stop further. Note that I was NOT including time taken to wait for a train, or to purchase a ticket. So I think this 8.39 can be ruled out.

Now, according to the revised timetable supplied by the manager at Luton
from the FinancialOutrage site
the only other possible train is the one that departed Luton at 7.25 and arrived at King's Cross Thameslink 8.23. (this would fit the police's unreleased CCTV sighting of the bombers at King's Cross at 8.26).

I am bound to say that I am surprised at the Financial Outrage researchers' findings - that it took them 3 minutes 35 seconds to get from the station entrance (where the famous CCTV image was taken) to platform 1 or 3. I tried this myself and got down to platform 3 in 1 minute 15 seconds. Platform 1 is the furthest away, but nevertheless I managed it in 2 minutes. I wasn't walking particularly quickly.

I didn't stop to purchase a ticket; it's my speculation that they had already bought them. Perhaps by phone or email, or, (more likely in my opinion), Germaine Lindsey, living in Aylesbury, had bought the tickets for all 4 of them. He could have met with the 3 Leeds bombers in the car park, where I imagine them waiting in the car/s, keeping out of sight, until about 7.20, when they started walking to the platform.

So I am surprised that it is maintained that
"ON 7/7 IT WAS PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE
FOR THE 'SUPPOSED' LONDON BOMBERS
TO BE FILMED AT 7.22 AM AT LUTON STATION
AND ALSO CATCH A TRAIN WHICH ARRIVED
AT KINGS CROSS PRIOR TO BEING FILMED AT 8.26 AM".

From my own findings I would argue that it certainly was possible, if they had pre-purchased their tickets (and maybe even still possible if they had to purchase them on the way to the platform, particularly if it was platform 3, the closer of the 2).

Of course, this could all be cleared up, were the police to release the CCTV images of them at King's Cross, with timings, together with the documentation regarding the purchasing of the tickets - when, where and by whom? On the platforms at King's Cross Thameslink there are plenty of CCTV cameras, one every 20 yards approximately. (Also, as a matter of interest, I noticed there are at least 2 cameras above the McDonalds at King's Cross - no doubt as a result of the drug dealing that is/was such a problem there. This caught my eye, since it explained how the police were able to be certain that Hasib Hussein the bus bomber had gone to McDonalds after having failed to get on a tube train).

In my opinion, the idea that they never travelled to London in time for the bombings/never travelled to London at all is a red herring. (evidence: there is a CCTV image of them about to enter Luton station, the ringleader, Khan, recorded the 'al-Jazeera' video - and some of their DNA was found at the sites).

A more fruitful area of investigation, I would suggest, would focus on claims that a 5th man was seen, briefly, with the 4, at King's Cross. If this is true, why has the CCTV evidence not been released? Would it not have been helpful for members of the public to identify him? Or were the police already aware of his identity?

Similarly, I would suggest that the accounts of the 2 cars full of bombs/explosives, parked at at Luton/Leighton Buzzard, may, as there are some unanswered questions and oddities here, merit further investigation (then again, it may not)".


Subsequent to this, I understand that the police have said that Jermaine Lindsey was indeed waiting for the other 3 at the Luton station carpark. I believe had been there since 4AM? Anyway plenty of time to get tickets, if they had not already been bought beforehand.

The other thing to say about this debate concerning train times is: how do we know that the date-stamp on the CCTV was correct? It could have been 2 minutes out one way or the other...

Sorry, ed, this is a bit of an oversize cut n paste job

 

[detective-boy]

What about the bomber who was confronted outside canary wharf, why no mention of him?

He does not exist. It did not happen. You will NOT be able to provide ANY reliable evidence that it did. Get over it or get treatment.

 

[Prole]

And what exactly were the other 52 guilty of ...

Obviously that 4 of the 56 are said to be guilty. Pedantics eh?

 

[jæd]

Prole, here's one of my posts (on the Team8 board) from last September:

Prole... Scallyboy has been kind enough to repost his findings. Can you tell us how he is wrong in these...? Because you are saying its impossible to take this route...

 

[Badger Kitten]

Well I'm glad you now recognise the 'sceptics' as being harmless BK - perhaps you may eventually realise that we are simply all on the same side, in fact.

Doubtless you have the same feelings about 9/11 as to 7/7? Here's a comment from a 9/11 widow, in a not dissimilar position to yourself.



911blogger.com

No, we are not on the same side. I am not on the side of anyone who refuses to accept that 4 young men murdered 52 others and injured 700 more through a suicide bombing atrocity. You are harmless in the sense that you are not physically violent ( I hope) however, the aggression, personal attacks insults and lies of various so-called 'sceptics' have upset me greatly, and I think crap spouted about there being no bombers is vile.
I have had conspiracy theorists pestering my family, leaving crap on my blog and I am fucking fed up of it. We are NOT on the same side - one side is living in the real world and one side isn't. One side lives a reality in which her train was suicide bombed and the other side denies this.

 

[laptop]

I tried this myself and got down to platform 3 in 1 minute 15 seconds. Platform 1 is the furthest away, but nevertheless I managed it in 2 minutes. I wasn't walking particularly quickly.
...
I understand that the police have said that Jermaine Lindsey was indeed waiting for the other 3 at the Luton station carpark. I believe had been there since 4AM? Anyway plenty of time to get tickets, if they had not already been bought beforehand.

Thanks for this.

I sort-of look forward to the conspiranoids finding a way to condemn you for having done actual research.

 

[Prole]

@ scalyboy

I agree that they could have got the 7.25 train that was scheduled at 7.24 if they had pre-bought tickets (btw return tickets don't really make sense). The images from the 28/6 show 3 of the 4 entering Luton and exiting at Kings X Thameslink. A similar sequence could be shown from Luton to Kings X from July 7th, but hasn't (no-one is suggesting we should see pictures of them exploding). Images from Kings X concourse of the 4 together and from platforms could also be shown.

Intriguing why anyone should have to speculate which train they took on July 7th, this information should be freely available.

BK promoted Milan Rai's book yesterday evening which states that they caught the 7.48 from Luton. This claim is also made by Horizon and many newspapers. Justice can only be based on the truth and there's nothing wrong with seeking it IMHO.

 

[jæd]

Ah... An answer...!

 

[scalyboy]

@ scalyboy

I agree that they could have got the 7.25 train that was scheduled at 7.24 if they had pre-bought tickets (btw return tickets don't really make sense). The images from the 28/6 show 3 of the 4 entering Luton and exiting at Kings X Thameslink. A similar sequence could be shown from Luton to Kings X from July 7th, but hasn't (no-one is suggesting we should see pictures of them exploding). Images from Kings X concourse of the 4 together and from platforms could also be shown.

Intriguing why anyone should have to speculate which train they took on July 7th, this information should be freely available.

BK promoted Milan Rai's book yesterday evening which states that they caught the 7.48 from Luton. This claim is also made by Horizon and many newspapers. Justice can only be based on the truth and there's nothing wrong with seeking it IMHO.

Yes, I agree the picture would be a lot clearer if other CCTV images were released. But the reason I originally posted the above was that I took issue with the Financial Outrage site peeps claiming it was impossible for the 4 to have got to Kings X in time to set off the bombs. As far as I could tell, it would have been possible if they took that 7.24 train. Combined with other (eg DNA) evidence I do not see why the offical version (whilst maybe not 100% true) should be rejected.

 

[laptop]

the picture would be a lot clearer if other CCTV images were released.

If there was any uncertainty about whether the four had met anyone else en route, that would be a very good reason for not releasing any footage that might show that person. It could be vital evidence in a trial - unless it had been released.

Note to conspiranoids: this is not to suggest that the authorities do believe there was a fifth, sixth or nineteenth person. Life is more complicated than you versus the Dark Side. Normally intelligent people manage to hold more than one hypothesis in mind at once.

 

[Jazzz]

No, we are not on the same side. I am not on the side of anyone who refuses to accept that 4 young men murdered 52 others and injured 700 more through a suicide bombing atrocity. You are harmless in the sense that you are not physically violent ( I hope) however, the aggression, personal attacks insults and lies of various so-called 'sceptics' have upset me greatly, and I think crap spouted about there being no bombers is vile.
I have had conspiracy theorists pestering my family, leaving crap on my blog and I am fucking fed up of it. We are NOT on the same side - one side is living in the real world and one side isn't. One side lives a reality in which her train was suicide bombed and the other side denies this.

Well this is a real shame because apart from these silly internet spats, there is really a common cause in the calling for a full inquiry into 7/7. You could take the line 'I don't agree with alternative theories one jot, I think they are ridiculous, but one function of such an inquiry is to see them off and establish the facts in a way that is unarguable'. You lose nothing and suddenly the presence of the sceptics assists you. I hope you will think about this; I nearly came down to your talk, just to say hello - not to make any fuss.

 

[Lock&Light]

- one side is living in the real world and one side isn't. One side lives a reality in which her train was suicide bombed and the other side denies this.

Great stuff, BK.

 

[Yossarian]

I have had conspiracy theorists pestering my family, leaving crap on my blog and I am fucking fed up of it.

That's fucking outrageous. I wonder what the hell all these obsessives did with their time before there was an internet...

 

[laptop]

I wonder what the hell all these obsessives did with their time before there was an internet...

They had to spend more time raising cash, because it costs more to make huge photocopied bundles of "evidence". They wandered around town carrying their "evidence" in carrier bags, and sat in the corners of libraries, smelling.

What they did before the invention of the photocopier, I don't know.

 

[tarannau]

Well this is a real shame because apart from these silly internet spats, there is really a common cause in the calling for a full inquiry into 7/7. .

So a silly internet spat is calling the victim of a bomb attack a liar, a govt. shill, a made up character to spread disinformation.

Hmm. If you suffered the horror of an attack like that you really be that keen to share a 'common cause' with such folks? Or would you think that, just perhaps, you'd be in a better position to get straight answers without a load of vocal, irrational and intolerant loonspuds becoming involved with wild speculative theories.

 

[Jazzz]

So a silly internet spat is calling the victim of a bomb attack a liar, a govt. shill, a made up character to spread disinformation.

Hmm. If you suffered the horror of an attack like that you really be that keen to share a 'common cause' with such folks? Or would you think that, just perhaps, you'd be in a better position to get straight answers without a load of vocal, irrational and intolerant loonspuds becoming involved with wild speculative theories.

Yes you may well think that tarannau.

But sometimes you win your battle by not fighting it.