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    Lazy Llama

2004 F1 Championship

Who will take the drivers/constructors crown

  • Michael Schumacher

    Votes: 23 62.2%
  • Someone else who thinks they are good

    Votes: 8 21.6%
  • Ferrari

    Votes: 3 8.1%
  • Some other sub-standard car manufacturer

    Votes: 3 8.1%

  • Total voters
    37
Sadly thanks to "Mad" Max and Dave "fingers in too many pies" Richards the WRC is going the way of F1 and will soon become shite santised rubbish as well - I mean - re-entering a car thast retired? FFS The BRC hasn't been good since the kit car days of Higgins and Laukkanen in the Megane's, so I doubt it will get much coverage.

I know. :(

The British Championship (the international one - not the ANCRO national series I was referring to) hasn't really been the same since the early '90s, when it was still a stepping-stone up to world events for drivers like Colin McRae and Richard Burns. IMO the problem really is that World Rally Cars don't really make sense for amateur drivers because they're too expensive, too temperamental and too limited in numbers because manufacturers only have to produce 20 "kits" per year, so unless you have the works teams participating - and why should they? - there's not going to be much competition.

I used to have a lot of respect for Dave Richards, especially since he co-drive my all-time sporting hero Ari Vatanen to the 1981 World Championship, but these days I just see him as a megalomaniac. He's determined to mould the WRC to suit his commercial aims (since he has the TV rights :rolleyes: ) and to hell with anyone who complains that the sport is losing its character and its appeal. The WRC is just turning into an off-road version of F1.

And as for all this shit about allowing retirements back in, well ... :rolleyes: ... as far as I'm concerned, if you retire you're out. Don't see why that's such a problem - except for someone desperate to keep as many top cars in as possible to keep the TV crews happy. Just as bad - no, worse actually - is this crap about recce'ing on the same day - making pace notes in the morning and driving the stages in the afternoon, rather than having the recce and the rally separate. What, tf, is the point of that? I know the crews have whined about the loss of their "gravel cars" - but it's only 14 years ince the RAC Rally (now Rally GB) allowed any pace notes at all! Before that it was a "blind" rally. I know they say it's dangerous without gravel cars, but tbh wihtout any pace notes at all the speeds are lower anyway, and I certainly don't remember any nasty accidents on the RAC attributable to lack of pace notes. There were more offs, but because cars were going more slowly anyway they tended to be less serious. I'd rather see recces banned altogether on some events than this tinkering with the structure of the sport. And, of course, the WRC is turning into a carbon copy of F1 with its hospitality trailers and slick media presentation - the days when the World Champion's car was serviced in a muddy farmyard in the dead of night are long gone, along with the days when the RAC Rally was not just a round of the World Championship but also the big end of season bash for British rally drivers from national champion in his Cosworth to a clubbie in a Lada.

Tbh this sort of thing is why I like watching national rallying. It's free of all the politics and the media hype: it's just sport for the sake of it, and it's still got the sort of friendly, amateur ethos that world rallying lost a decade ago. You can still get involved in the organisational side of the sport - they're desperate for marshals on most events - for nothing, get close to the competitors, chat to the drivers, and there's a wonderful buzz to be had from standing by a rally car with its crew in harness with crash helmets on and the driver building up the revs, stopwatch in hand, counting down the last five seconds over the windscreen and then leaping back to avoid the shower of gravel as you shout "Go!" It's the one thing that makes me want to possess a car - so I could get out in the forests and do it more often. It's always nice when a driver or co-driver says, "thanks a lot. We've had a great day and we couldn't do it without you people [marshals]." Professional sport of all sorts leaves me fairly uninterested when compared to something you can get involved in.
 
You tend find a good driver on something is a respectable driver on everything else (with some notable exceptions). I dislike Rally because it's clock racing, I don't really like touring cars because they're ability to go round those tracks is usually somewhere between poor and rubbish. It was like watching Massa going round Albert Park and kind of ignoring the extra track available and so forth.

F1 has the cars race much closer now than before in the turbo days...one of the 'grand' tracks is back this year, Spa Francochamps. The change of Hockenheim was a great loss :(
 
I think it's the price you pay for technical innovation - F1 is meant to be the pinnacle of motorsport and as such pushes the boundaries.

A Williams technical guy said they could lap Silverstone 17 seconds quicker if there were no restrictions, but the car couldn't be driven by a human!

But restrictions are in place to protect the driver, in particular, after Hakk's crash in Australia and again when Ruben's crashed his Stewart, Wendlinger crashed the Sauber and almost died at Monaco etc.

I hate this rose-tinited bollcoks about it was so much better than before. Arse I say. F1 has always had a dominant force who take the regs and push them to win.

In the turbo era you had Brabham BMW, then McLaren then Williams, then McLaren again winning the majority of races, for example of 88/89 seasons. Even then only maybe 1 of 5, maybe 6 cars at a push could potentially win.

I don't know what you could do to really make it closer, apart from essenitally kill the sport by having only a couple of chassis and engines to choose from. But then all you have is CART racing and I've never rated that above F1.
 
the B said:
You tend find a good driver on something is a respectable driver on everything else (with some notable exceptions).

True enough, but not always. An F1 car is a very specialised device so it's a bit unfair to expect someone from another discipline to jump into it and be brilliant, but IIRC Colin McRae didn't show up too badly when he tested a Jordan a few years ago.

Ayrton Senna, meanwhile, had several tests in rally cars and did fairly well. That said, the sportscar driver Derek Bell and F1 drivers Martin Brundle and Derek Warwick all tried the RAC Rally in the '80s and '90s and never did very well. There's some highly amusing footage of Bell sliding around in the snow on the 1988 RAC Rally, with his co-driver saying, "Just listen to me more! Please!" and Martin Brundle's Escort Cosworth ended up upside-down in Kielder Forest in 1996. Oh, yeah, and am I the only one who remembers the touring car driver Will Hoy stuffing his Toyota Celica into a tree early on the 1994 RAC - right in front of a TV camera?!

Perhaps the F1 driver is always going to be quicker around a circuit, but tbh I think it's hard to argue that the rally driver isn't the better all-rounder. That said, I think a Grand Prix on snow could be quite amusing... :D

g_force, I don't know about F1, but I'm certainly in the "rallying ain't what it used to be" camp! Nor has it got any safer: there've been a lot more accidents involving injuries to the professional crews over the last couple of years than at any time since the Group B cars were banned at the end of 1986.
 
To be quick in rallying takes a lot more than to be as relatively quick in F1 IMO - obviously having a track helps :rolleyes: but car control tends to be better becuase there's not as many devices etc.

Listneing to pace notes in a real skill which think drivers truggle with - ie Valention Rossi on last year's Rally Wales.

Ah yes, Will Hoy - great in the BTCC, not so good in the RAC!!! Mind you does anyone remember Mansell's drive into the Donnigton Bridge in the factory Mondeo in the BTCC :D :eek: Ouch!

Rallying isn't safe because the marshalling at soem events is still awful - esp Monte Carlo. Also Gronholm set the fastest ever time on one of the old 1000 lakes stages in his 206 last year!

PWRC and S1600 and great but you never see it on TV
baldacciauto.jpg
 
the B said:
Rally driving, it's a race against the clock - I don't think the rally drivers are great at overtaking.

Well, they're just different disciplines at the end of the day, aren't they? As you say, a rally driver wouldn't do the wheel-to-wheel stuff so well, and I can't see an F1 driver setting very fast times on an icy forest track. At the end of the day they're different skills, so this is a fairly futile argument really. :p :D

g_force, I don't think you're right about the accident rate:

Rallying isn't safe because the marshalling at soem events is still awful - esp Monte Carlo. Also Gronholm set the fastest ever time on one of the old 1000 lakes stages in his 206 last year!

You're right about the marshalling, although IMO there's also the fact that events take place in a much smaller geographical area than ten years ago so the spectators are more concentrated, and that is a serious safety issue. However, I was referring to accidentas involving injury to crews. They've always happened, but Colin McRae's accident in Corsica a few years back and the injuries to Risto Mannisenmaki, Tommi Makinen's old co-driver, plus a few other incidents, do make me think that the danger to crews is higher than it was.

Carlos Sainz (IMO the greatest rally driver of them all) commented some years ago that since the 34mm air restrictor was introduced in 1995 to cut power outputs there's no reserve of power at high revs to pull you out of a slide. I think that's been a contributory factor in some of the crashes - and it's also a reason that I think they shoulld change the rules to allow high-revving naturally-aspirated engines. Plus they'd sound better than WRC cars that top out at 7000rpm.

Anyway, I'm off to the pub so more tomorrow. :p :D
 
F1 Pah!

Which shiny red advert on wheels did they agree to let win this week then?

sconf.gif
<--- watching F1 from a £200 grandstand seat.

peepwall.gif
<--- watching rallying free from a damp tree stump.
 
I see Toyotas have announced they are having a "new" car by mid-season - precisely how much money do they have??!! :eek: I thinking Mr Gascoigne is less than impressed by the set-up!

With the GP having been a few days ago, i'm a bit more positive about this season - still not sure about the qaulifying format, but I guess if it rains at the end of season 2 it could make for an interesting grid!!

I think the Ferrari pace will not be as great, but MS is the master of set ups on new tracks, seeing as how he walked Malaysia a few years back. hoepfully Trulli, Alonso and JPM can at least make it interesting...for about 10 laps...
 
I hope we are not going to have another Ferrari dominated season circa 2002. Kimi's engine failure was not a good sign and coulthard won't challenge for the championship. With little Schumacher complaining about his contract and Montoya leaving for Mclaren next year I would imagine morale is somewhat low at Williams. Renault and BAR have made great strides but I don't think they are ready to seriously challenge Ferrari this year.

On a totally different topic, what do you guys think of capping the budgets of F1 teams? As long as the big teams can spend three times as much on car development as the smaller ones we are going to see this lopsided racing. Also with tobacco sponsorship being banned in many countries money might become more scarce in the future.
 
Toyota have spent about $150 million this year I think. That compares to about $300 million by McLaren and Williams. Ferrari are thought to have spent $330.

Minardi get by on Michael Schumacher's wages excluding bonuses (under $50).

I think top teams can survive easily without tobacco money, they get so much TV coverage and have so much prestige. Williams used to depend on Rothmans, but not anymore. Slowly but surely, tobacco sponsership will vanish/get close to vanishing from F1.

As for budget capping, there is a certain amount of it in many ways. Minardi, despite a tiny budget, can put together a car that (while uncompetitive) is still very fast.

Will Michael Schumacher rule in Bahrain and China? Probably, but his skill lies in something other than set up, it's finding grip. He's good in the wet because he has a good sense of grip and the limits. :) He's ace he is.
 
Yep he is ace, and even with budget capping the best will invariably end up at Williams, McLaren and best of all Ferrari. Its the prestige isn't it.
 
Ralf Schumacher is ready to go to Toyota quite soon, be interesting to see how fast he would be in one. Mike Gascoigne could also be fired soon.
 
the B said:
Ralf Schumacher is ready to go to Toyota quite soon, be interesting to see how fast he would be in one. Mike Gascoigne could also be fired soon.

Eh? Fired? He's only been there a few months, has had no input on the new car and has already said he's going to start from scratch mid-this season and have a more revolutionary car for 2005.

Think they'll give him time to com eup with his own design before sacking him.

Agree on Ralf - will end up at Toyota with Da Matta or maybe DC, with Williams getting either (or in my dreams both) Webber and Button :D
 
Blimey - so what was the point of hiring him and spending all that money if he's not allowed to produce his own car???

Other rumours include JV to Toyota for 05 which could be interesting - esp as it means either both drivers will be sacked, or DC and Ralf will fight it out if Ralf is let go by Williams.

JV to Toyota?
 
Bumpety bump - it's Malaysia this weekend!! S

So Kimi is quick, but coudl onyl run 9 laps due to relaiblity concerns with the Merc engine..doesn't sound promising. Looks like another poor GP coming up for Jordan and Toyota - god knows how they're going to make up that time.

I'm hoping Renault can get a bit further up seeing as Alonso was pole in '03.

Friday second practice times from Sepang:

1 RAIKKONEN McLaren 1m34.395s
2 R.SCHUMACHER Williams 1m34.693s
3 WEBBER Jaguar 1m35.054s
4 M.SCHUMACHER Ferrari 1m35.094s
5 MONTOYA Williams 1m35.100s
6 TRULLI Renault 1m35.115s
7 MASSA Sauber 1m35.288s
8 ALONSO Renault 1m35.300s
9 COULTHARD McLaren 1m35.301s
10 BARRICHELLO Ferrari 1m35.373s
11 BUTTON BAR 1m35.407s
12 PANIS Toyota 1m35.524s
13 ZONTA Toyota 1m35.850s
14 KLIEN Jaguar 1m35.996s
15 SATO BAR 1m36.292s
16 FISICHELLA Sauber 1m36.353s
17 DAVIDSON BAR 1m36.708s
18 WIRDHEIM Jaguar 1m36.883s
19 DA MATTA Toyota 1m36.907s
20 HEIDFELD Jordan 1m37.725s
21 BRUNI Minardi 1m37.818s
22 BAUMGARTNER Minardi 1m38.588s
23 GLOCK Jordan 1m38.796s
24 PANTANO Jordan 1m39.324s
25 LEINDERS Minardi 1m41.485s
 
Whit you lookin at, ya fanny? Ah'll fucken do you *scuffles with g force

*wins

Ha, where are ye noo wae yer ...........?

</thread derailment>
 
Practice times have traditionally been near useless, even more so now since teams treat the cars so so so gently.
 
Ich bin ein Mod said:
Whit you lookin at, ya fanny? Ah'll fucken do you *scuffles with g force

*wins

Ha, where are ye noo wae yer ...........?

</thread derailment>

Typically Schumey fan resorting to underhanded tactics - now I know how Villeneuve and Hill feel...









:p ;)
 
Forgot to visit this thread after the weekend but to all the non-Button believers out there :p

Class drive, in what is a pretty average car. Roll on Bahrain...
 
I think the car has finally caught up with the money, you put a good driver in it and you'll see what happens.

Button is a bit of a David Coulthard, he's not utterly shit but not world champion material. That Alonso kid and Raikkonnen though...
 
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