1914-18 : The Great Slaughter - Challenging A Year Of Myth Making.

[stowpirate]

Still slitting hairs over use of language

This is starting to derail the whole point of this thread?

 

[stowpirate]

Not really. A damn sight more changed between the early 19th and early 20th century in terms of military strategy, tactics and hardware, than between the early 20th and 21st centuries. The key differences are purely in man-portable weapons and sidearms. Everything else (planes, self-propelled artillery etc) is just "evolutionary".

Interesting, maybe the first modern Industrial War was the U.S. Civil War in the mid 19th century. Possibly a dress rehearsal for WW1 ?

http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/westtech/x1stmodw.htm

 

[Fuchs66]

Parts of the land (millions of acres) were left pretty much fallow for several years immediately after the war, which was "handy" for post-war reinforcement of the Russian minority (something the Russo-centric Kremlin tried to do everywhere AFAIK).

Bit of a derail: Which goes a long way to explain the problems a large proportion of Ukrainians have with Russia's interference at the moment. It's also a big problem in the Baltic states, with a significant minority of ethnic Russians, many of them descendants of those brought in to fill the gaps created by sending Baltic nationals to the Gulag, stirring the shit with a lot of backing from Moscow.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The differences between WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq/Afghanistan, militarily speaking, are marked.

Well done on completely missing my point!

 

[likesfish]

Interesting, maybe the first modern Industrial War was the U.S. Civil War in the mid 19th century. Possibly a dress rehearsal for WW1 ?

http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/westtech/x1stmodw.htm

If you mean two at least at the start fairly industrialised states flailing at each other ineffectivly in mass slaughter you'd be right
Niether side in the acw had enough trained soldiers to even train their forces

 

[phildwyer]

If you mean two at least at the start fairly industrialised states flailing at each other ineffectivly in mass slaughter you'd be right
Niether side in the acw had enough trained soldiers to even train their forces

Was the CSA "fairly industrialized?"

 

[ViolentPanda]

If you mean two at least at the start fairly industrialised states flailing at each other ineffectivly in mass slaughter you'd be right
Niether side in the acw had enough trained soldiers to even train their forces

The economies of the confederate states were mostly based on agriculture and extractive stuff (coal, mostly). Industrialisation was far more rife in the union states. Calling both of them "fairly industrialised" is a bit of an over-statement.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Niether side in the acw had enough trained soldiers to even train their forces

Few countries enter major wars with large, well-trained standing armies, with some obvious exceptions.

 

[brogdale]

Interesting piece this morning by Hugh Sykes on R4's 'Broadcasting House' looking at Franco-German anti-war poetry, and he specifically referenced Jean Jaurès' (& Keir Hardie's) calls for a General Strike to prevent the war, and Jaurès' assassination by Raoul Villain 3 days before war was declared between the two countries.

It's up on the website, now......here it is:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01rdh2k

"If some one oppresses me, my companions or me, I know how to handle a rifle and have learned contempt for danger; tyrants watch out, from now on the working class has only one country...their own."

Henri Guilbeaux
​

Good piece from Sykes.

 

[treelover]

Paxman's 'Great War' series on BBC1 is much better than I thought it would be, (though in tonight's episode he makes clear he thought the war was basically justified), there is some balance, conscientious objecters are shown and the Glasgow Rent Strikes and Red Clydeside. There are some incredible facts and secret history such as the fact that of the over 2 million who were conscripted, one milllion applied for exemption including a tripe butcher, next week covers the way the state interfered in people's sex lives, and just like the Taliban/Iran, etc , there were patrols over-seeing the sexual behaviour of young people!

for me, the acid test of balance will be if he covers the troop mutinies, I followed a link off here and was amazed at the scale of them.

 

[Gingerman]

Interesting, maybe the first modern Industrial War was the U.S. Civil War in the mid 19th century. Possibly a dress rehearsal for WW1 ?

http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/westtech/x1stmodw.htm

You could make a case for the Crimean War being the 1st Industrial war as well,first to use the railways,telegraph etc.

 

[Harry Patch]

Opposing the official commemorations of the start of World War I and opposing future wars

12.00 - 1.00 pm, this Saturday, February 15 at the Bank of Ideas (Occupy London’s new space) 238 Grays Inn Road, WC1X 8HB Chancery Lane/King’s Cross tube

Meeting organised by ‘Remembering the Real World War I’

The next ‘Remembering the Real World War I’ meeting will be 7.30 pm, Thursday February 20, 88 Fleet St (next to St. Bride’s Church) EC4 1DH

For further meetings, articles, films etc. see http://therealww1.wordpress.com/
See the Occupy London website for other events at the Bank of Ideashttp://occupylondon.org.uk/

 

[butchersapron]

Internment camps for germans in the UK

As the centenary approaches of the outbreak of the First World War, Simon Buck of Eastside Community Heritage invites support for a local initiative in London’s East End to remember the treatment meted out to the tens of thousands of German nationals living in Britain at that time:

Eastside Community Heritage, based in Ilford, will be running school workshops, oral histories of both German descendants and those with strong local memories, as well as a public exhibition of our findings in early August. Anyone interested in being involved in the project are more than welcome to join our motley crew of local historians.

On the centenary of the First World War, stories such as these must be told to remember the sheer totality of the war, even so far from the trenches. Here at Eastside Community Heritage, we intend to ensure the memories and lessons learnt from this history are passed on to those living two hundred years from the start of the war. I implore anyone who has memories of their own, or passed down from their families, of Germans in East London during the First World War to contact us to share their history with us before it is lost by the tides of time.

Eastside is in search of volunteers to aid their research as well as participants for their oral histories. Relatives of Germans who had lived in London during the war, or those with strong local ties to the East End, are welcome to come and share their stories by contacting Simon Buck, an oral historian working for Eastside, at Simon@ech.org.uk or 020 8553 3116/07969 483596.

Eastside’s blog: http://little-germany-stratford-1914.tumblr.com/

 

[treelover]

Paxman's series on tonight, I wonder if he will mention the mutinies, he did mention the Derby family who were prosecuted for attempting to blow up Lloyd George

 

[treelover]

Internment camps for germans in the UK

I think I remember that post from years ago, interesting stuff.

 

[butchersapron]

Steer clear of this myself.

 

[J Ed]

Steer clear of this myself.

Why? Cos it's Paul Mason? I think it sounds like it would make for some pretty amazing telly.

 

[butchersapron]

Why? Cos it's Paul Mason? I think it sounds like it would make for some pretty amazing telly.

Let's do it ourself then. Paul can help. If he's up for it.

But let be honest, a BBC prod sound around for 40 mins of what paul mason took from it it pretty worthless. The same revolutionaries is the same. So many better things to do.

 

[butchersapron]

Also, nice of paul to write the script and the over-narrative and we get to fund it. Cheers paul.

 

[shagnasty]

Interesting, maybe the first modern Industrial War was the U.S. Civil War in the mid 19th century. Possibly a dress rehearsal for WW1 ?

http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/westtech/x1stmodw.htm

Also the first documented by film (stills)

 

[treelover]

Well, the last episode , sadly no mention of the mutinies, in fact according to Paxo in 1918 it was all hands to the pump with energised successful recruitment campaigns, even the formerly strike prone Welsh Miners working to the bone for the war effort, the war changed the poor's lives for the better, no mention of failure of 'the land fit for heroes, general strike, etc, it's basically been a form of whigs view of history: though he did cover strikes, attempted assassinations, conchies, the pity of war was well covered and the images of the facially disfigured were heart breaking and will linger.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Also the first documented by film (stills)

Nope, that was the Crimean war, which ended 5 years before the American Civil War started.

 

[Pickman's model]

Why? Cos it's Paul Mason? I think it sounds like it would make for some pretty amazing telly.

doesn't seem to mention africa

 

[toggle]

Nope, that was the Crimean war, which ended 5 years before the American Civil War started.

Nods. One bloke with a camera at crimea iirc.He got an interesting mix of pictures

there were many, many more of the civil war, but afterwards people wanted glass for greenhouses more than they wanted the images.

do you know if there was any film footage earlier than the boer war?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Nods. One bloke with a camera at crimea iirc.He got an interesting mix of pictures

Roger Fenton. Also well-known then and since for his still lifes (some of which still, even in reproduction, look almost 3-dimensional (yes, I'm a fan!).

there were many, many more of the civil war, but afterwards people wanted glass for greenhouses more than they wanted the images.

do you know if there was any film footage earlier than the boer war?

Not that I know of.

 

[treelover]

Canada's offer, got the tone absolutely right, imo, i would like to see Nurse Edith Cavell on the coin, executed for 'assisting the enemy' by the Germans.

 

[treelover]

Proposed Edith Cavell coin

 

[dylanredefined]

given the famine, the war and the above ^^^ Ukraine must have been virtually depopulated ay one point

Parts of the land (millions of acres) were left pretty much fallow for several years immediately after the war, which was "handy" for post-war reinforcement of the Russian minority (something the Russo-centric Kremlin tried to do everywhere AFAIK).

Spent an afternoon machine gunning an abandoned church tower in a Ukraine training area years ago. When we finally took the village we asked the Ukrainian translator with us about the history of the place. Thinking it would be like the Imber village on Salisbury plain (where the army kicked the locals out to practice for d-day and never let them back )
The Russians came and shot some villagers then the Germans came and killed a lot then the Russians came back and shot the survivors for being collaborators. We were told. On expressing our horror for desecrating the village.
"It is not a problem their are hundreds of villages like this!" We were told.
Area was also littered with anti-tank mines as well as debris from the cold war.

 

[Pickman's model]

Proposed Edith Cavell coin

you like spies on your coins then

 

[dylanredefined]

you like spies on your coins then

She wasn't a spy though.