"Young professionals" to infest flats above Iceland

[ViolentPanda]

Two problems with this simplified view:

1) Developers don't tend to sell the property. There'll be a vending agent, possibly with their own ad agency account, that'll tend to set the pace.

Terribly sorry, I should have said "the developers' agents rather than "the developer". How remiss of me.

2) Is the term 'young professsional' really equivalent to 'thrillseeking yuppies seeking edgy and vibrant locale?' or similar. I think there's a danger of reading too much into the positioning - I suspect that they're aiming these flats at 'young professionals' because:
a) The expectations of young housebuyers may be less, and these flats are priced in a theroetically affordable way.
b) The poisition is noisy, piss-streaked and right in the middle of things.They're also smallish flats on higher floors. These dubious qualities tend to make it more attractive to the young rather than families.
c) You'd have to be a professional to afford any property in London. This flat is no exception.

Do you really believe that a few Estate Agents' signs and a bit of marketing are going to really change Brixton's longstanding image. Whatever the brochure might say, the flats are still likely to attract those already drawn to Brixton in some way, not some mystical ruthless yuppie population with scorn for the surroundings and £-signs in their eyes...

It isn't about what I believe, as I made clear previously, it's about the perception, the image that is given to potential buyers.

 

[ViolentPanda]

A bit confused as to why I'm stirring...

Read your post in context to the rest of the thread. If you still can't see why you were stirring after that, may I humbly suggest a remedial course in English comprehension?

 

[Pickman's model]

Read your post in context to the rest of the thread. If you still can't see why you were stirring after that, may I humbly suggest a remedial course in English comprehension?

if 'bob' doesn't already understand his own motivations, there's little hope for him.

 

[tarannau]

Terribly sorry, I should have said "the developers' agents rather than "the developer". How remiss of me.

It isn't about what I believe, as I made clear previously, it's about the perception, the image that is given to potential buyers.

And as I made clear, do you really believe that potential buyers will lap-up what an estate agent's literature tells them, regardless of what they have previously heard/known about Brixton? Seems a little unlikely to say the least.

It's one thing trying to give a perception through advertising and marketing, it's another trying to make it believable...

 

[Donna Ferentes]

It is also true that estate agents will use the term "professional" to descirbe almost anybody in work (in contrast to their habitual exactiude of both concept and phrase). I got described as a professional when I bought my old house in Oxford, despite the fact that I was pushing paper for fuck all as a stock control assistant.

Nevertheless, given ye state of Ye Not-So-Olde Housinge Market I suspect your actual young well-salaried professionals may be the market here.

 

[tarannau]

And besides, what difference does perception really make in this case?

The developer/agent believes that these flats are perhaps best suited for young professionals. On the balance of things, with the flats' noisy central position and the price, I find it fairly hard to quibble with that belief. They do seem more suited to the young if you ask me.

The whole problem seems to centre around whether you find the term 'young professional' as somehow indicative of something unpleasant or undesirable. I don't, as my previous post suggests.

 

[Pickman's model]

The whole problem seems to centre around whether you find the term 'young professional' as somehow indicative of something unpleasant or undesirable. I don't, as my previous post suggests.

what about young upwardly-mobile professional?

didn't you ever wonder why there were 2 'p's in yuppie? or where the 'u' came from?

 

[newbie]

So, a few questions:

Who on the 'social housing' waiting lists would find these flats suitable? Answer, almost no-one with any sort of choice. Because they'll be stuck there for life, and almost no-one would want to live above Iceland forever. They seem ideal for singles or Dinkies to me.

Why do the incomers who are perhaps not so young as they used to be resent those younger than themselves? SFAICS everybody on this thread seems to want to justify why they, and their sort, is good for Brixton. Incomers almost all. Only one person has really raised the question of where the locals born & bred are supposed to live (and hey, guess where he was born).

Every single person, whether owning, renting, shortlifing or squatting, who wasn't born & raised in Brixton is as responsible for squeezing out the locals. Equally every single person who has attempted to make their home here has contributed in some way to the regeneration of the area. We must all take responsibility for our own actions, even though we cannot be held directly responsible for the way society has been changing. If you don't live closeby where you grew up, then you've parked yourself on someone else's turf, with all the responsibilities that implies. And some of the attempts by rather recent incomers to pull up the drawbridge are ludicrous.

Why should young people I've known all their lives, born & schooled locally, have to move away from the area to bring up their children? Frankly whether one incoming professional gets the flats or another is irrelevant: the odds are it won't go to someone who went to Stockwell Park. That is the problem. and all the tribalism of this thread, as one group of incomers tries to prove their peer group to be somehow more deserving, is absurd.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

The whole problem seems to centre around whether you find the term 'young professional' as somehow indicative of something unpleasant or undesirable. I don't, as my previous post suggests.

I do have some problems with them, insofar as I tend to find them very career-orinentated and not very local community-orientated. Naturally that is a very large generalisation indeed and one subject to a number of objections, but I'm sure you know what I mean. I think you have a problem on several levels if, for instance, if people's main relationship to the place they live in is its proximity to the undergroud station, if they are unlikely to interact much with other members of the community (e.g. by having their kids go to a lcoal school) and if they are, themselves, nervous of the local community (hence gated communities etc). I might think this more the case of young professionals than others - you might think otherwise. You might counter than in fact, they may be more likely to interact with other local people by going to local bars and pubs, something I personally do but rarely. But it's an honest belief, agree with it or not. It is clearly true that the nature of an area is affected by its demographics - and not just in terms of affluence. An aging population has different atitudes, needs and behaviour patterns to a largely young population. And so on.

Moreover, I don't think the whole debate (such as it is) revolves around that. I think it revolves around the question of whether or not too much is being done for people who do not need it and not remotely enough for people who do, and whether it is not reasonable and/or understandable for some of the have-nots in that situation to have a number of gripes against the haves. I also think that there's a very obvoius debate (or potential debate) on the question of "what is to be done?" and that this is being obscured by some rather silly arguments about people allegedly having it in for homeowners. It ain't so.

 

[Pickman's model]

SFAICS everybody on this thread seems to want to justify why they, and their sort, is good for Brixton.

er...

where have i said that?

 

[newbie]

you haven't but you're a tourist. My comments applied to those who live here

 

[IntoStella]

er...

where have i said that?

It's newbie's groundhog argument -- he trots out exactly the same, completely fallacious, interpretation of the arguments every time.

In a minute he will say we all want Brixton to remain crack and crime infested. You can set your watch by it.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

you haven't but you're a tourist. My comments applied to those who live here

Do I count? I'm "here" until Saturday lunchtime.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

As another potentially relevant aside, it's true generally that egalitarian and redistributionist arguments - even mild, moderate, "progressive" positions - will tend to be distorted and presented as being about "jealousy" and "envy" by people who do not wish to hear them or feel they will not benefit from them. It's a very common phenomenon.

 

[editor]

I do have some problems with them, insofar as I tend to find them very career-orinentated and not very local community-orientated.

You're a professional. You moved into the area. What makes you think the people following you will "not be very local community-orientated"?

Most of the people I know who have moved to Brixton in recent years came here because they loved the place.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

You're a professional. You moved into the area. What makes you think the people following you will "not be very local community-orientated"?

I think they may in many cases be rather more affluent than I, rather more nervous about the place. Rather more concerned to shape it in their image. This has happened in many other places in Europe and North America over the past few decades, it's not the product of my imagination.

Incidentally, I'm a professional in the sense of having a professional qualification and a job requiring same. Not in the sense of having an agreeable salary and aspirations to match.

 

[newbie]

aye Justin, much as I have a lot of sympathy for your position, you do count. You've made a stand on behalf of those in rented flats unable to buy in Brixton. A well argued and persuasive case, with which I have only very minor disagreements. But you neither grew up in, nor work in, Brixton. You're using it as a dormitary, just like almost all the others on this thread (tourists excepted) because of its perceived advanntages.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

You're using it as a dormitary, just like almost all the others on this thread (tourists excepted) because of its perceived advanntages.

Not really. I'm living "here" because I gave notice from my other place. Believe me, it wasn't the subject of some careful consideration with many other options to hand.

Mind you, I stayed because i liked it.

 

[editor]

I think they may in many cases be rather more affluent than I, rather more nervous about the place. Rather more concerned to shape it in their image.

Wow. Presumptions'r'Us!

So how come you weren't guilty of the same when you rolled into town?

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Wow. Presumptions'r'Us!

So how come you weren't guilty of the same when you rolled into town?

I've given some fairly careful and considered opinions, with some acknowledgement of their limitations. is it too much to expect, in turn, rather less of your usual "prove it! answer the question! you too!" style?

 

[Stobart Stopper]

At the end of the day,most people are free to choose where they live, be it Brixton, Redbridge, Bethnal Green or out in the countryside. This is why Britain is a democracy, a free country. No amount of anti-gentrification protesting is going change this.

 

[IntoStella]

You're using it as a dormitary.

Malicious and untrue. Justin does not use Brixton as a dormitory. It is his home just as much as it is yours. I see the argument you're tying to make and it's a very poor one. It has NEVER been about who has been here the longest. Only a moron would think that. It's about who actually gives a damn about Brixton and what is happening to it. The rash of ''luxury'' flats we see now are a world away from the lefty liberal white arrivals of the 70s and 80s who loved Brixton for what it was and didn't use it as a dormitory in the way career and cash focused yups do. Were you born here, seeing as you're so keen on the subject? Weren't you part of that white liberal influx?

What I really don't understand is why you would want to see homeless families remain in hostels while everywhere 'luxury' bachelor pads are springing up for sneering rich kids? Haven't you got ANY sense of social justice?

 

[IntoStella]

At the end of the day,most people are free to choose where they live, be it Brixton, Redbridge, Bethnal Green or out in the countryside. This is why Britain is a democracy, a free country. No amount of anti-gentrification protesting is going change this.

No, Stobart, nothing could be farther from the truth. Most people are NOT free to choose where they live at all because they cannot afford to live in an increasing number of places -- ie anywhere near London, for a start. THAT is the product of gentrification.

 

[LDR]

At the end of the day,most people are free to choose where they live, be it Brixton, Redbridge, Bethnal Green or out in the countryside. This is why Britain is a democracy, a free country. No amount of anti-gentrification protesting is going change this.

Not in the style that I have become acustomed to.

I couldn't live in the same type of house in Brixton that I do in the Eastend. In fact, I doubt I could afford to live in my house in the Eastend if I had to buy it now at current market prices.

 

[tarannau]

Why do the incomers who are perhaps not so young as they used to be resent those younger than themselves? SFAICS everybody on this thread seems to want to justify why they, and their sort, is good for Brixton. Incomers almost all. Only one person has really raised the question of where the locals born & bred are supposed to live (and hey, guess where he was born).

Every single person, whether owning, renting, shortlifing or squatting, who wasn't born & raised in Brixton is as responsible for squeezing out the locals. Equally every single person who has attempted to make their home here has contributed in some way to the regeneration of the area. We must all take responsibility for our own actions, even though we cannot be held directly responsible for the way society has been changing. If you don't live closeby where you grew up, then you've parked yourself on someone else's turf, with all the responsibilities that implies. And some of the attempts by rather recent incomers to pull up the drawbridge are ludicrous.

Why should young people I've known all their lives, born & schooled locally, have to move away from the area to bring up their children? Frankly whether one incoming professional gets the flats or another is irrelevant: the odds are it won't go to someone who went to Stockwell Park. That is the problem. and all the tribalism of this thread, as one group of incomers tries to prove their peer group to be somehow more deserving, is absurd.

Well said Newbie. Gawd knows, many of us are passionate about Brixton, but there's far too much drawbridge pulling-up around here for me. Everyone has their idea of the halcyon days of Brixton - rarely would the memories actually meet.

The remarkable thing for me is that most of the posters arguing vigorously here were probably attracted by the vibrancy/youthful liveliness of the place to begin with. Equally importantly they were probably pleased with the tolerance and acceptance of others once shown in Brixton. Now they seem to be raging against largely the same qualities, while all too happy to make sweeping generalisations about broad swathes of people and make sloppy jibes about them as 'yuppies' or 'young professionals' without entertaining the idea that they may actually be individuals with as much right to live in the area as they do...

 

[Donna Ferentes]

"The law in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets and to steal bread."

 

[Preacher]

As a new poster I'd like to encourage decent Brixton people to either email the planners to encourage them to vote against this tonight or to get along in person to the meeting to object to the developer's tricks.

A property developer has got control of a key bit of central Brixton real estate, right by a Victoria line Zone 2 tube station.

They're trying to subvert the 25% social housing rule by carving the estate into "12 unit" bite-sized chunks.

They withdrew their 59 unit plan last June because - shock horror - they'd have to provide 15 flats - Ken Livingstone's 25% social housing rule - for people off the council list.

Every normal, thinking person knows that a 25% social housing provision would not only reduce the developer's profits, but the people spending, say, £200,000 on a flat by Brixton tube, would have their resale profits reduced by the mere presence of social housing in their block.

What! You've got social housing tenants in the block, pushing their prams down to Iceland? <reduces resale calue by £50,000>

The developers are trying to push through a phased "social housing free" development at Lambeth planning committee tonight to increase their profits, to increase the resale value to the yups who shell out £200,000 per flat, and to keep poor or vulnerable people on Lambeth Council's housing waiting list.

Thank you. The meeting starts in 1 hour 50 minutes.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Well said Newbie. Gawd knows, many of us are passionate about Brixton, but there's far too much drawbridge pulling-up around here for me. Everyone has their idea of the halcyon days of Brixton - rarely would the memories actually meet.

Arggghhh! Who has said this? What have they said? Where did they say it?

 

[editor]

I've given some fairly careful and considered opinions, with some acknowledgement of their limitations. is it too much to expect, in turn, rather less of your usual "prove it! answer the question! you too!" style?

It's clearly too much to expect to a straight answer from you.

I wasn't asking you to "prove" anything. I simply wondered why you thought you weren't equally guilty of trying to 'shape Brixton into your image' when you arrived. What made you different?

 

[newbie]

Malicious and untrue. Justin does not use Brixton as a dormitory. It is his home just as much as it is yours. I see the argument you're tying to make and it's a very poor one. It has NEVER been about who has been here the longest. Only a moron would think that. It's about who actually gives a damn about Brixton and what is happening to it. The rash of ''luxury'' flats we see now are a world away from the lefty liberal white arrivals of the 70s and 80s who loved Brixton for what it was and didn't use it as a dormitory in the way career and cash focused yups do. Were you born here, seeing as you're so keen on the subject? Weren't you part of that white liberal influx?

I was born within 5 miles of here if you must know, but didn't grow up here. Absolutely I'm an incomer, and I bear my own responsibilites for that. And absolutely I've used it as a dormitory, earning my money in the fleshpots north of the river, same as you do.

As to "who actually gives a damn about Brixton and what is happening to it", maybe in the handful of years you've lived here you've grown to like the place, care about it. You just have an odd way of showing it.

What I really don't understand is why you would want to see homeless families remain in hostels while everywhere 'luxury' bachelor pads are springing up for sneering rich kids? Haven't you got ANY sense of social justice?

Don't be so silly. I've never suggested that, nor will I.