Yet another US college gun slaughter - "at least 10" killed in Oregan shooting

[Azrael]

True. But obviously any such report doesn't quote the people who said 'fuck off'.

As the Wire would put it, true that! Even so, it does sound a lot more constructive than many alternatives have been.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

As the Wire would put it, true that! Even so, it does sound a lot more constructive than many alternatives have been.

Part of this is possibly a cultural difference. It may be that such sick-making terms are more accepted there. But that said, even in the US, it smacks of a 'well if you just knuckle down you can become a doctor'. Really? Bollocks. It's rich kids who get to do that - and that's how the system is set up. At worst that kind of programme is 'apolitical' in a way that is in reality deeply political.

Three words.

Ian

Duncan

Smith

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Fuck me, I'm thick. That's where Smith got his idea for 'coaches' from. The evil cunt. This kind of 'let's help the gang-bangers help themselves' scheme is exactly the thing Smith cut his teeth with post-Quiet Man.

 

[8den]

Liked for the second paragraph, which I agree with 100%.

Regarding the first, the body count from the kind of dragnet that'd be needed to sweep up illegal guns would go way beyond "some casualties." Once gangs got word of what was happening, they'd try to bolt with their weapons and their product. To have any hope of stopping them escaping with the guns you're trying to seize, police would have to seal off the area, in effect kettling an entire neighborhood.

Even if that was ruled out, and the current law followed, many would die while the police were executing no-knock warrants, and many illegal guns would go undetected for lack of probable cause. In either case, there'd be mass panic. To have any hope of succeeding despite that, you'd have to mount this operation nationally, and simultaneously, with no prior warning.

This cure would be way, way worse than the disease.

The premise that makes this idea fall down on is that it suggests the only way that people will relinquish weapons is by force.

Once again buy backs were successful in both the UK & Australia. In Australia the campaign faced stiff resistance mass rallies in protest, but in the end the buy back was widely taken aboard and wildly successful.

I notice you've also started to ignore my posts after I throughly debunked your study Azrael.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Fuck me, I'm thick. That's where Smith got his idea for 'coaches' from. The evil cunt. This kind of 'let's help the gang-bangers help themselves' scheme is exactly the thing Smith cut his teeth with post-Quiet Man.

Dunked-in Shit nicks/his "special advisors" nick all of his policies from the US. He's never come up with anything original. Even his think-tank is a direct lift from the US republican right.

 

[MrSki]

Fuck me backwards! The way shit is been argued on here by Azrael we should all have our own arsenal of nukes.

What is hard to understand about a society with less guns kills less people?

The Right to bear arms should be replaced with the right to bear a fucking pop gun pistol that takes 30 seconds to load which was about the standard of firearms when the constitution was amended.

If you have a gun under your pillow you are more likely to shoot your other half if woken up suddenly than any intruder.

 

[two sheds]

If you have a gun under your pillow you are more likely to shoot your other half if woken up suddenly than any intruder.

Yeh but if they've got a gun under *their* pillow they'll be able to stop you by shooting you first.

 

[MrsDoyle]

 

[Azrael]

The premise that makes this idea fall down on is that it suggests the only way that people will relinquish weapons is by force.

Once again buy backs were successful in both the UK & Australia. In Australia the campaign faced stiff resistance mass rallies in protest, but in the end the buy back was widely taken aboard and wildly successful.

I notice you've also started to ignore my posts after I throughly debunked your study Azrael.

Buy-backs are indeed successful: amongst law-abiding gun owners with a clean record. No government's gonna pay criminals to hand over illegal guns!

As for your "thorough debunking," if you're referring to the article that mostly criticized the NCVS, as explained, it isn't my study, and since it's used by gun control advocates, I'd welcome it being debunked.

Fuck me backwards! The way shit is been argued on here by Azrael we should all have our own arsenal of nukes.

What is hard to understand about a society with less guns kills less people?

The Right to bear arms should be replaced with the right to bear a fucking pop gun pistol that takes 30 seconds to load which was about the standard of firearms when the constitution was amended.

If you have a gun under your pillow you are more likely to shoot your other half if woken up suddenly than any intruder.

Except the available evidence doesn't show that "a society with less guns kills less people". Although I've no time for sweeping comparisons, Switzerland's undoubtedly awash with guns, yet has one of the lowest murder rates in the world; Norway also has high gun ownership, as do many states of the union whose murder rates are well in-line with the European average.

Rates of gun ownership are just one factor in crime, and crucial is, of course, who owns the guns. Nuts who sleep with a pistol under their pillow and commit manslaughter are, thankfully, rare. Armed criminals are, unfortunately, a lot more common.

 

[BandWagon]

I thought I'd try and see this from a different angle. The US has 3.55 gun homicides per 100,000, compared to .05 for the UK, a ratio of 71 to 1. So if as Azrael says, the ratio of gun ownership is not to blame, what is? Are Americans just plain bad? The British aren't saints, that's for sure, so what's going on? Why are Americans killing each other so much more?

 

[likesfish]

assault weapons its a made up term and any ban on them wasn't actually a ban of fast firing large capacity semi automatic rifles it was a ban on a collection of cosmetic features because not having a bayonet lug and a folding stock will make my ak so much less lethal.

americans do most of their mayhem with handguns in thirty years of mayhem in northern ireland personal protection weapons were used successfully in a handful of circumstances terrorists either used bombs ambush or mob handed with automatic weapons.
unless you've spent spent weeks and a mountain of ammo training your not winning in that situation.
most other countries in what passes for the rich bit of the world dont let citizens go armed for self defence because their isn't a wide spread
access to firearms. we found that going armed doesnt make for a politie society just a lot of dead people over stupid arguments we found that out in tudor times

 

[8den]

Buy-backs are indeed successful: amongst law-abiding gun owners with a clean record. No government's gonna pay criminals to hand over illegal guns!

Then you clearly haven't bothered your hole to do the first bit of research into the issue.

Many successful buys have been implemented in a "no questions asked" policy.
LA's Gun Buyback Program Is a Massive Success

The buy back in Brazil for example reduced the total number of firearms by 7%

As for your "thorough debunking," if you're referring to the article that mostly criticized the NCVS, as explained, it isn't my study, and since it's used by gun control advocates, I'd welcome it being debunked.

It was on the page before.

Re read it.

Except the available evidence doesn't show that "a society with less guns kills less people". Although I've no time for sweeping comparisons, Switzerland's undoubtedly awash with guns, yet has one of the lowest murder rates in the world

And has been pointed out on this thread guns in Switzerland are in the most part owned by members of the Swiss Military. Ammunition, storage, carrying are all strictly regulated.

Norway also has high gun ownership,

As has been pointed out before on this thread Norway requires background checks, medical and psychological checks, regulated storage and waiting periods. All thing the pro gun lobby opposes.

as do many states of the union whose murder rates are well in-line with the European average.

And yet your national firearms homicide rate PER CITIZEN is higher than the COMBINED rated for the whole Union.

Rates of gun ownership are just one factor in crime, and crucial is, of course, who owns the guns. Nuts who sleep with a pistol under their pillow and commit manslaughter are, thankfully, rare. Armed criminals are, unfortunately, a lot more common.

Is the US crime rate drastically higher than the rest of world?

Are you really saying that the US gun fatality rate is primarily due to violent crime? Really?

 

[BandWagon]

I thought I'd try and see this from a different angle. The US has 3.55 gun homicides per 100,000, compared to .05 for the UK, a ratio of 71 to 1. So if as Azrael says, the ratio of gun ownership is not to blame, what is? Are Americans just plain bad? The British aren't saints, that's for sure, so what's going on? Why are Americans killing each other so much more?

I found this link:

Why We Americans Are so Violent

Quote:
Why is our history filled with social violence?

If you were to boil all the myriad factors, conditions, distinctions, foibles, tics and idiosyncrasies that account for the violence that is part of our national character, one trait stands out among all others: localism. The vaunted tradition of allowing individuals, families and local jurisdictions to settle their own affairs is a hallmark of American history. It is one of our most traditional values. It’s even written into the Constitution in the little cited but important Tenth Amendment, the last, but as our history shows, not least of the Bill of Rights.

“The powers not delegated to the United Sates by the Constitution nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."


Maybe that's the real issue, rather than guns themselves: Americans really are more violent than the rest of the advanced world.

 

[MrsDoyle]

Maybe that's the real issue, rather than guns themselves: Americans really are more violent than the rest of the advanced world.

...so, maybe then we take the deadly toys away from the ultra violent Americans and find out if the premise that 'fewer guns=fewer deaths' actually does hold true; perhaps with a promise to give them back if the firearms death toll doesn't go down #jokingnotjoking

 

[hash tag]

Most of this is what I would have expected but there were some interesting facts in this weekends torygraph piece Marysville, one year on: how does a city heal itself after a school shooting?

I sure in the rag it mentioned mass shootings are on the increase, though I can't find the piece on line.

 

[MrsDoyle]

here are stats and a fab interactive map on 2015 so far, there are vast areas without any incidents and fewer on the west coast than the east: View Results | Gun Violence Archive

"Gun Violence Archive (GVA) is a not for profit corporation formed in 2013 to provide free online public access to accurate information about gun-related violence in the United States. GVA will collect and check for accuracy, comprehensive information about gun-related violence in the U.S. and then post and disseminate it online, primarily if not exclusively on this website and summary ledgers at www.facebook.com/gunviolencearchive. It is hoped that this information will inform and assist those engaged in discussions and activities concerning gun violence, including analysis of proposed regulations or legislation relating to gun safety usage.

GVA is not, by design an advocacy group. The mission of GVA is to document incidents of gun violence and gun crime to provide raw, verified data to those who need to use it in their research, advocacy or writing."

should be very useful for those here who like to argue about the validity of data, only goes back to 2013 though

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Dog named Trigger shoots owner in the foot - BBC News

A woman in the US state of Indiana is recovering after being shot by her dog in a bizarre hunting accident, an environment official says.

The woman, named as Allie Carter, 25, was hunting waterfowl on Saturday in the north of the state, Jonathon Boyd, an Indiana conservation officer said.

She put down her 12-gauge shotgun but her chocolate Labrador stepped on it, shooting her in the foot.

To add insult to injury, the dog was named Trigger.

 

[8den]

I found this link:

Why We Americans Are so Violent

Quote:
Why is our history filled with social violence?

If you were to boil all the myriad factors, conditions, distinctions, foibles, tics and idiosyncrasies that account for the violence that is part of our national character, one trait stands out among all others: localism. The vaunted tradition of allowing individuals, families and local jurisdictions to settle their own affairs is a hallmark of American history. It is one of our most traditional values. It’s even written into the Constitution in the little cited but important Tenth Amendment, the last, but as our history shows, not least of the Bill of Rights.

“The powers not delegated to the United Sates by the Constitution nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."


Maybe that's the real issue, rather than guns themselves: Americans really are more violent than the rest of the advanced world.

I see republicans are blaming mental health issues as if America is the only country with a mental health crisis. Or violent video games. Or rap music.

America has a gun violence problem because it has too many guns.

 

[likesfish]

The swiss own a lot of guns and most weekends you can see a load out shooting and walking through a village with military weapons often fully automatic.

But no magazines fitted till on the range nobody's armed for self defence after the match is over people have a beer and sausage and go home.

Swiss don't have weapons to defend against the feds Brown people etc.
Swiss have weapons to defend the country and what it means to be swiss

 

[DotCommunist]

and to defend all that blood money what they bank

 

[Idris2002]

and to defend all that blood money what they bank

the love of a pimp is not like that of an ordinary man

 

[hash tag]

From Bahnhof "dog shoots woman" immediately followed by 8den's America blames mental health problems

Aren't most Swiss people reservests or some such?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Aren't most Swiss people reservests or some such?

No. Most Swiss men under the age of 40 are, though.

 

[Idris2002]

How do you make a Swiss roll?

 

[DotCommunist]

make an american give him an E

 

[Idris2002]

Push him over an alp.

 

[MrsDoyle]

I see republicans are blaming mental health issues as if America is the only country with a mental health crisis. Or violent video games. Or rap music.

America has a gun violence problem because it has too many guns.

and also jaw droppingly low levels of educational attainment in many high gun crime areas...that said, most mass shooters seem to be educated and from white collar backgrounds. That said though a reduction in the ease of obtaining firearms and ammunition, a tightening of how they are kept at home, better background checks on those wishing to buy them, only allowing concealed carry and assault weapon ownership under exceptional circumstances and a buy back scheme should really have some effect on this issue

 

[BandWagon]

I found this link too:

List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The US is 112th out of 218 with a rate of 4.7 compared to UK and France, both 1.0. So the numbers support the essence of the issue, which is the level of violence. Do the guns incite the violence, or does the violence mean that people arm themselves?

Note: the numbers are a few years out of date; I doubt that Yemen would be on a par with 4.8 now.....

 

[Azrael]

8den, I disagree with the NRA on a ton of stuff, from universal background checks, to arming teachers. Way too much of the time, they're a bad self-parody.

So I've no problem with licenses to own and carry, training requirements, etc. None of these change the fact that, if high gun ownership were the problem, several peaceful nations ought to be bloodbaths. The correlation just ain't there.

The L.A. buyback hands over $100 or, occasionally, $200 gift cards on a no-questions-asked basis. No questions are asked, and gift-cards are used, because the authorities don't want to knowingly pay criminals for illegal weapons. TBF, it's barely a figleaf, so in one sense you're right; but as it's not compensating people for the actual value of their weapons, it's not comparable to the British and Australian programmes.

BandWagon, the problem isn't "Americans," it's areas of horrific deprivation, deprivation that should've been addressed decades ago, and not with the prison-industrial complex. This is, at long last, beginning to happen, but it'll be a long, hard road. Specific gun control measures will play a part, but only a part, and a small one. America's murder rate has already fallen significantly while its gun laws have, generally, liberalized.

 

[teqniq]

Here are the guns the NRA doesn't want you to get