Yet another US college gun slaughter - "at least 10" killed in Oregan shooting

[8den]

The American public is massively in favor of maintaining the second amendment as it stands. Furthermore, that support grows stronger with every mass shooting, because people better understand the need for self-defense.

Any chance of a source for any of that?

 

[phildwyer]

On this at least, I agree with dwyer - it's an impossibility to disarm the US at the moment.

Correct.

Now ask yourself: why do Americans support the right to bear arms? Do you think it's because we're stupid, as is often suggested on here? Do you think it's because we have some pseudo-sexual fascination with guns, as is also often suggested on here?

Or do you think that maybe--just maybe--Americans have a well-informed and intelligent opinion on an issue that strongly affects their well-being, safety and basic rights?

 

[phildwyer]

Any chance of a source for any of that?

For the first time in more than two decades of Pew Research Center surveys, there is more support for gun rights than gun control. Currently, 52% say it is more important to protect the right of Americans to own guns, while 46% say it is more important to control gun ownership.

Support for gun rights has edged up from earlier this year, and marks a substantial shift in attitudes since shortly after the Newtown school shootings, which occurred two years ago this Sunday.

The balance of opinion favored gun control in the immediate aftermath of the Newtown tragedy in December 2012, and again a month later. Since January 2013, support for gun rights has increased seven percentage points – from 45% to 52% — while the share prioritizing gun control has fallen five points (from 51% to 46%).

Growing Public Support for Gun Rights

 

[8den]

Yeah I'm calling Bullshit on those "facts" Phil

Guns

"Do you favor or oppose a federal law requiring background checks on all potential gun buyers?"

Favor Oppose Unsure/
No answer
% % %
7/29 - 8/2/15

88 10 1
Republicans

81 17 1
Democrats

93 6 1
Independents

89 9 2
12/4-8/13

85 12 3
Republicans

84 13 3
Democrats

92 6 2
Independents

81 15 3
Gun-owners

84 14 2
4/24-28/13

88 11 2
Republicans

86 14 0
Democrats

95 4 1
Independents

83 14 3
3/20-24/13

90 8 2
Republicans

86 12 2
Democrats

96 3 1
Independents

89 10 2
2/6-10/13

91 7 2
Republicans

89 9 2
Democrats

94 5 2
Independents

90 8 2
1/11-15/13

92 7 1

 

[phildwyer]

Yeah I'm calling Bullshit on those "facts" Phil

Guns

"Do you favor or oppose a federal law requiring background checks on all potential gun buyers?"

Favor Oppose Unsure/
No answer
% % %
7/29 - 8/2/15

88 10 1
Republicans

81 17 1
Democrats

93 6 1
Independents

89 9 2
12/4-8/13

85 12 3
Republicans

84 13 3
Democrats

92 6 2
Independents

81 15 3
Gun-owners

84 14 2
4/24-28/13

88 11 2
Republicans

86 14 0
Democrats

95 4 1
Independents

83 14 3
3/20-24/13

90 8 2
Republicans

86 12 2
Democrats

96 3 1
Independents

89 10 2
2/6-10/13

91 7 2
Republicans

89 9 2
Democrats

94 5 2
Independents

90 8 2
1/11-15/13

92 7 1

That data refers to support for background checks. Every sensible American supports them. It does not refer to support for the second amendment. Do you understand the difference?

Look, this is stupid. You're not capable of defending your position, because you speak from ignorance and prejudice. Do some reading and then maybe we can talk.

 

[8den]

More americans support control over the 2nd amendment it's 47% to 50% so your claim about rising support is shite.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Correct.

Now ask yourself: why do Americans support the right to bear arms? Do you think it's because we're stupid, as is often suggested on here? Do you think it's because we have some pseudo-sexual fascination with guns, as is also often suggested on here?

Or do you think that maybe--just maybe--Americans have a well-informed and intelligent opinion on an issue that strongly affects their well-being, safety and basic rights?

I've already stated why I think it is, and for the most part it is nothing to do with protection from the state - that's just a paranoid minority. The majority who favour gun ownership do so out of a desire to protect themselves from their fellow citizens. It is part of a deep sickness in a deeply sick society, a society that has never really properly formed as a society. And it is in those parts of the states where society has least formed itself - the poor, divided, within-living-memory racist states of the south - that the sickness is deepest.

No society ever really properly forms as a society. They are always only in an imperfect state of becoming, but there are large numbers of Americans who don't even really want to take part in the process of becoming. That doesn't make them stupid. It does ensure that the problems will continue if they get their way, that the society has no chance of becoming something else, moving on to another, still imperfect but also better, state of becoming.

Not so different from Brazil, in many important ways. And as with Brazil, you are siding with the pro-gun conservative establishment on this, an establishment that seeks at all costs to prevent society from continuing on a process of forming itself. Keeping an atomised, armed citizenry that is scared of itself is a very useful situation for them. It's just a variation on 'divide and rule' really.

 

[phildwyer]

More americans support control over the 2nd amendment it's 47% to 50% so your claim about rising support is shite.

No it is not, as you should be able to see quite clearly from the information I have just presented:

Since January 2013, support for gun rights has increased seven percentage points – from 45% to 52% — while the share prioritizing gun control has fallen five points (from 51% to 46%).

Growing Public Support for Gun Rights

The truth is that you care nothing for the facts. You are simply one of those who feel viscerally repelled by the very idea of guns. You are in short a perfect illustration of Freud's wise dictum: "A fear of firearms is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

 

[8den]

No it is not, as you should be able to see quite clearly from the information I have just presented:

Since January 2013, support for gun rights has increased seven percentage points – from 45% to 52% — while the share prioritizing gun control has fallen five points (from 51% to 46%).

Growing Public Support for Gun Rights

The truth is that you care nothing for the facts. You are simply one of those who feel viscerally repelled by the very idea of guns. You are in short a perfect illustration of Freud's wise dictum: "A fear of firearms is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

And you dumb ignorant fuck the stats from 2015. Are control ownership 50% Protect Gun rights 47%.

Anyway you want to play it

The American public is massively in favor of maintaining the second amendment as it stands.

Anyway you want to juke the statisitcs my statistic says that it's 50 to 47 yours say 45 to 47. Anyway you want to play that the US public is not MASSIVELY in favour of protecting the second amendment.

Furthermore, that support grows stronger with every mass shooting,

it's fallen in the last year. Man you suck at maths.

 

[phildwyer]

And you dumb ignorant fuck the stats from 2015. Are control ownership 50% Protect Gun rights 47%.

Anyway you want to play it



Anyway you want to juke the statisitcs my statistic says that it's 50 to 47 yours say 45 to 47. Anyway you want to play that the US public is not MASSIVELY in favor.



it's fallen in the last year. Man you suck at maths.

I'm sorry, this makes no sense at all. You are either drunk, crazy or very, very angry. Most probably all three.

 

[8den]

I'm sorry, this makes no sense at all. You are either drunk, mad or very angry. Most probably all three.

no sober. How can you call a difference of 7% Massive?

Or are you mixed on on sizes? Did the girls tell you four inches is massive?

 

[TomUS]

The American public is massively in favor of maintaining the second amendment as it stands. Furthermore, that support grows stronger with every mass shooting, because people better understand the need for self-defense.

There is little opposition to the amendment. There is much opposition to how it has been interpreted by the S. Court. The Constitution clearly implies that the right to bear arms exists as part of a well regulated militia.

And of course there is more support for "gun rights" with each mass killing. More fear = more desire for guns = more gun sales. This is why the NRA loves mass killings since they represent the gun industry.

 

[gentlegreen]

Boy accused of killing eight-year-old girl who refused to let him see puppy

Up to 100 children a year die from accidental shootings, research shows

 

[prunus]

Correct.

Now ask yourself: why do Americans support the right to bear arms? Do you think it's because we're stupid, as is often suggested on here? Do you think it's because we have some pseudo-sexual fascination with guns, as is also often suggested on here?

Or do you think that maybe--just maybe--Americans have a well-informed and intelligent opinion on an issue that strongly affects their well-being, safety and basic rights?

a) - stupid, with additionally lashings of d) - fucked-up.

Anyone who thinks the way to make people safer from guns is to have more guns is clearly stupid.

Anyone who thinks they need to have a gun is clearly fucked-up.

Guns are for killing things. You don't need to kill things. Stop killing things, and get rid of the guns.

This is all blindingly obvious to all people who are not a) and d) above - ie almost all the civilised world.

 

[likesfish]

Germany allows a considerable amount of firepower to be owned but you do have to jump through considerable hoops to do so it does stop the stupid and unmotivated being armed.

The yanks do similar if you want to own a machine gun or short barrled rifle strangely those two classes of weapons arnt used in crimes funny that

 

[Idris2002]

Isn't another issue that if guns are going to work properly at all, they have to be built to last - so if you have one, you don't really need to buy another, as the one you have should last you for decades? I.e. you can't have planned obsolescence like you can with cars. So if the gun industry does employ twice as many people as the car industry, presumably they need to have reasons to persuade people to keep buying guns. . .

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Isn't another issue that if guns are going to work properly at all, they have to be built to last - so if you have one, you don't really need to buy another, as the one you have should last you for decades? I.e. you can't have planned obsolescence like you can with cars. So if the gun industry does employ twice as many people as the car industry, presumably they need to have reasons to persuade people to keep buying guns. . .

Think guns are a bit like tattoos. Getting that first one is the biggest hurdle. And after that, the urge to get another one can become irresistible.

I worked at a couple of gun shows in the US years ago (I was selling glass-cleaner, randomly enough), and the almost sexual delight the people perusing the hardware were getting was pretty clear. There were a lot of very excited, happy people there, and I would guess that nearly all of them already had a gun.

 

[likesfish]

mostly their expensive toys dangerous toys but toys never the less no civilian needs a rifle able to shoot over a mile etc etc.
its not what or how many guns someone owns its who they are.
some people cant be trusted with a spud gun

 

[Idris2002]

some people cant be trusted with a spud gun

<combat colin pic>

 

[likesfish]

Hey I was trusted with a guided anti tank missile launcher.

tbf they only gave me one missile a year though

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

This is the world the far right wants us to live in:

A bystander outside a Home Depot in Auburn Hills, Michigan, opened fire on a man suspected of shoplifting from the store on Tuesday as he attempted to flee the scene in an SUV driven by another man.


Police told The Detroit News that the bystander, a woman with a license to carry a concealed pistol, shot at the getaway car's tires after witnessing a loss prevention officer attempt to stop the suspect and fail.


It's unclear how many shots the woman, who is in her 40s, fired from her 9 mm handgun, though police believe she may have punctured one of the vehicle's tires. Authorities are still on the lookout for the car.

Bystander Opens Fire On Suspected Home Depot Shoplifters

And I was afraid to shop at Walmart.

 

[fishfinger]

This is the world the far right wants us to live in:



Bystander Opens Fire On Suspected Home Depot Shoplifters

And I was afraid to shop at Walmart.

I hope she's prosecuted for such dangerous behaviour.

 

[MrsDoyle]

This is harrowing reading and should be something that any government cares about:

Rehearsing for death: A pre-K teacher on the trouble with lockdown drills

I have also noticed a polarisation here between those who seem to be arguing about minutiae and those who are truly bothered that these unnecessary deaths and the fact that little kids have to be drilled in what to do if a gunman comes into school shouldn't be happening

I don't know, and I'm sure I'll get torn apart for not seeing 'the whole picture' BUT, how can even the pro-gun folks not be appalled by this?

 

[Athos]

This is harrowing reading and should be something that any government cares about:

Rehearsing for death: A pre-K teacher on the trouble with lockdown drills

I have also noticed a polarisation here between those who seem to be arguing about minutiae and those who are truly bothered that these unnecessary deaths and the fact that little kids have to be drilled in what to do if a gunman comes into school shouldn't be happening

I don't know, and I'm sure I'll get torn apart for not seeing 'the whole picture' BUT, how can even the pro-gun folks not be appalled by this?

Do you really believe that people - many of then ordinary family men and women - who care about the prospect of having their constitutional rights curtailed aren't appalled by kids being killed? Really?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Do you really believe that people - many of then ordinary family men and women - who care about the prospect of having their constitutional rights curtailed aren't appalled by kids being killed? Really?

There's a constitutional right to a gun, but none to health care.

wtf are they doing worrying about that particular right - one only shared by three other countries, btw: those safe paradises of Guatemala, Haiti and Mexico - when they see the social problems and lack of human rights all around them?

 

[Athos]

There's a constitutional right to a gun, but none to health care.

wtf are they doing worrying about that particular right - one only shared by three other countries, btw: those safe paradises of Guatemala, Haiti and Mexico - when they see the social problems and lack of human rights all around them?

The fact that they don't have some other rights is hardly a reason to surrender those they do have.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The fact that they don't have some other rights is hardly a reason to surrender those they do have.

In and of itself, no. But focusing on the single least important right imaginable while not bothering about the obvious ones that don't exist - such as to healthcare, a roof over your head and food on the table - is to be part of the problem.

 

[Athos]

In and of itself, no. But focusing on the single least important right imaginable while not bothering about the obvious ones that don't exist - such as to healthcare, a roof over your head and food on the table - is to be part of the problem.

They are focussing on preventing existing rights being removed. But it's a red herring; you could level the same argument at the anti-gun lobby - why not focus on healthcare or education before guns?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

They are focussing on preventing existing rights being removed. But it's a red herring; you could level the same argument at the anti-gun lobby - why not focus on healthcare or education before guns?

because of the thousands who die each year from gunshots. There clearly isn't much of a right not to be shot in the US.

 

[Athos]

because of the thousands who die each year from gunshots. There clearly isn't much of a right not to be shot in the US.

But, on your logic, they should be campaigning for healthcare or education, instead, since the absence of those things obviously cost more lives. But it's a false dichotomy, anyway; quite possible to favour universal healthcare free at the point of delivery, whilst objecting to the state removing citizens' rights to defend themselves (including from the stste itself).