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Yes or No -AV referendum May 2011

frogwoman said:
Don't you think that it could be taken another way, as a sort of "barometer" of the gov't's performance?
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With Cameron opposed and Ed Miliband in favour. Why would it? Frankly, you lot are paying the Lib Dems a massive backhanded compliment. Deafting Clegg and his small rapidly diminishing party is so important that we should pass up a once in a generation reform to insist on reform to the voting system that has been Labour policy since the days of Keir Hardie?
 
articul8 said:
wtf? There was a big debate at the LRC conference about the degree to which they should be seeking to organise and include people who aren't members of the Labour party alongside those that are. Unfortunately that motion lost to people who wanted to assert the centrality of organising in the Labour party. Compass are also having an "opening out" debate. This is not such an unusual position. And who is telling anyone to fuck off. I'm not surprised about this. I'll still work with the LRC locally.
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Both a and b are your own prior points. Outside of the labour party means lib-dems. It's explicit for Compass. How about for you? As you're there already.
 
frogwoman said:
I don't see how the referendum is relevant, how is having a sligtly different voting system going to be of any use to people who have lost their jobs and are having their lives and homes put at risk with the loss of vital serivces? I mean it's not as though it's even fuckin actual PR ..
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PR wouldn't cure unemployment either. It's an absurd yardstick to use. Would it help the left not to see anti-Tory votes split at the next election and thus make a Tory government less likely?
 
But it's not a reform of the voting system, it won't make anything better. It is a reactionary type of reform for reasons that have been gone into massive detail earlier on in the thread.
 
articul8 said:
PR wouldn't cure unemployment either. It's an absurd yardstick to use. Would it help the left not to see anti-Tory votes split at the next election and thus make a Tory government less likely?
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Vote for the tories to get labour councillors making cuts out of the council,and make cuts by labour councillors less likely.
 
articul8 said:
PR wouldn't cure unemployment either. It's an absurd yardstick to use. Would it help the left not to see anti-Tory votes split at the next election and thus make a Tory government less likely?
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I'd think it was a fucking laughable and incompetent attempt at a distraction if they had a PR referendum at this time as well.
 
articul8 said:
PR wouldn't cure unemployment either. It's an absurd yardstick to use. Would it help the left not to see anti-Tory votes split at the next election and thus make a Tory government less likely?
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I.e bring on the lib-dems. He thinks the lib-dems are left. The party in the coalition with the tories imposing all the cuts that her opposes are actually secretly not pro-cuts or pro-tory. It's a map and strategy drawn up sometime in the 80s that needs serious updating.
 
butchersapron said:
Both a and b are your own prior points. Outside of the labour party means lib-dems. It's explicit for Compass. How about for you? As you're there already.
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Outside of Labour means - to me - means groups like the Greens, Pcs and Fbu, socialists, left nationalists (eg. Plaid left) and yes people who are leaving the LDs in disgust. ANd most of all people outside of formal politics but politicised by tuiton fees, EMA, Libraries, etc.
 
articul8 said:
With Cameron opposed and Ed Miliband in favour. Why would it? Frankly, you lot are paying the Lib Dems a massive backhanded compliment. Deafting Clegg and his small rapidly diminishing party is so important that we should pass up a once in a generation reform to insist on reform to the voting system that has been Labour policy since the days of Keir Hardie?
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Yes it's that important. You know full well the arguments put as to why. I know full why the opposing arguments (you're all stupid) as to why your hobby horse should win.
 
articul8 said:
Outside of Labour means - to me - means groups like the Greens, Pcs and Fbu, socialists, left nationalists (eg. Plaid left) and yes people who are leaving the LDs in disgust. ANd most of all people outside of formal politics but politicised by tuiton fees, EMA, Libraries, etc.
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Compass were explict that they meant lib-dems.

Yeah, all those people are hot for your think tank pluralism. Do a paper for them.
 
articul8 said:
wot? :confused:
" I don't want it as it's not PR, but if it was PR I wouldn't give a shit either"
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No I just mean that there's a reason why they're offering this shite at the moment and it seems like people like you have been taken in by it
 
butchersapron said:
Yes it's that important. You know full well the arguments put as to why. I know full why the opposing arguments (you're all stupid) as to why your hobby horse should win.
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I recognise - but disagree - with your analysis and the tactics you draw from it. But you seem incapable of seeing that I don't harbour some secret project for Labour to link-arms in the centre with the Lib Dems. Some people who are advocating a Yes vote probably do want that. But at least they are after some kind of realignment. In Labour the people who don't want any change at all are the people who think the party is already as good as it needs to be and just needs to hang around for a year or two to come back to power.

Butchers - how do you see an alternative to the coalition emerging on an electoral plane? Or don't you - is it going to some kind of revolutionary putsch that gets rid of Cameron and Clegg?
 
butchersapron said:
Compass were explict that they meant lib-dems.

Yeah, all those people are hot for your think tank pluralism. Do a paper for them.
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Even compass didn't only mean Lib Dems. But sure they would take existing Lib Dems - I would ask why someone like that would choose still to be in the lib dems at this point. I did write a paper for LRC selling the merits of PR for the left. Looks like I did too good a job :(;)
 
It's actually undermining the anti-cuts campaign to think that the lib-dems are worth giveing concessions to or in any way better than the tories,
 
Lib Dems want AV . Lib Dems have proven themselves to be two faced cunts who will do anything for power so I will not be voting at all . Fuck the fucking lot of the fucking cunts :mad:
 
articul8 said:
I recognise - but disagree - with your analysis and the tactics you draw from it. But you seem incapable of seeing that I don't harbour some secret project for Labour to link-arms in the centre with the Lib Dems. Some people who are advocating a Yes vote probably do want that. But at least they are after some kind of realignment. In Labour the people who don't want any change at all are the people who think the party is already as good as it needs to be and just needs to hang around for a year or two to come back to power.

Butchers - how do you see an alternative to the coalition emerging on an electoral plane? Or don't you - is it going to some kind of revolutionary putsch that gets rid of Cameron and Clegg?
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You think AV will force these tribalists Leftwards? Why? They'll be forced into a coalition with the lib-dem neo-liberals. Why would that force them leftwards?

There is no other other electoral option than labour. How progressive of you to reduce extra-parliamentary movements to putschs though - Franklin would be proud.
 
frogwoman said:
It's actually undermining the anti-cuts campaign to think that the lib-dems are worth giveing concessions to or in any way better than the tories,
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I don't think AV is a concession that should be given to the LDs. I see it as the most that can be forced out of the Tories on electoral reform as this point in time.
 
articul8 said:
Even compass didn't only mean Lib Dems. But sure they would take existing Lib Dems - I would ask why someone like that would choose still to be in the lib dems at this point. I did write a paper for LRC selling the merits of PR for the left. Looks like I did too good a job :(;)
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Don't wink at me. We're not in the think tank now.
 
butchersapron said:
There is no other other electoral option than labour. How progressive of you to reduce extra-parliamentary movements to putschs though - Franklin would be proud.
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There is another electoral option in the short term? What?

Maybe you can put forward a plausible purely extra-parliamentary strategy?
 
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