WTC attacks - the alternative thread

[fela fan]

Here's a WTC thread with a difference.

It seeks to find out what evidence there is that supports the USG official version of events that led to the attacks.

I charge that believing the official version makes people conspiracy fans. Or more accurately, fans of the the official USG conspiracy.

I'll kick it all off by mentioning three items that support the fact that the USG had nothing to do with it, and that instead it was Al Q, as explicitly stated by those in the US government. And believed by many on urban75.

1. Bumbling incompetence of the highest magnitude imaginable. Almost too incredible to be true, but hey, conspiracy fans will believe anything eh?

2. As explained by the USG, a passport was found at the scene of the crime that belonged to one of the hijackers. It jumped out of a bag, out of the plane window at moment of impact, and remained unburnt, being found amongsts tonnes of ash.

3. It must have been arabs of some sort that flew the planes into the towers, coz as told to us by the USG, they found a koran, and some manuals on how to fly planes in a hire car of one of the hijackers. The fact that a pilot displaying such skillful manoevres, incredible flying feats, needed to do one last bit of revision, along with a quick read of the muslim bible, is obviously damn good proof that arabs were in charge of the aircraft.

Any other evidence to back up the official version? Fans of government conspiracies invited to contribute too. After all, it's the one you believe, so where's your evidence?

 

[Diamond]

Ok I'll play along but first answer me this based on the assumption that the USG had a controlling influence in 9/11:


What did the USG stand to gain from 9/11 that it didn't have the power to do already?

 

[bigfish]

Ok I'll play along but first answer me this based on the assumption that the USG had a controlling influence in 9/11:

What did the USG stand to gain from 9/11 that it didn't have the power to do already?

The USG gained a pretext for war and with it a massive shift in public opinion without which the War Party would not have been able to project itself militarily into the oil rich Middle East where it is now currently engaged in attempting to secure the theft of Iraq's natural resources. Next on the to do list will be Iran in all likelihood.

You appear to think that public opinion is of little or no consequence in matters of war. Nothing could be further from the truth. An entire array of former and current national security officials including Richard Clarke, Madeleine Albright, Clinton’s secretary of state, and Donald Rumsfeld, Bush’s secretary of defense all testified before the 9/11 commission two weeks ago that public opposition made military intervention such as we are seeing now impossible before the September 11 attacks.

The fact that Bush's former Treasury Secretary Paul O'Niel broke ranks in January and with documentary proof asserted in his book that the White House began plotting to invade Iraq from its very first days in office in January 2001 is a devastating exposure. Now O'Niel's extremely damaging revelation has been confimed by yet another high level defector, Richard Clarke, the former Special Adviser to the Presidident on Counter Terrorism, who tells us in his book about a meeting he had with Cabinet Deputies in April 2001 where Paul Wolfowitze of Defense described bin Laden as a "little guy" arguing at the same time for a shift in focus to the terrorist threat supposedly eminating from Iraq!

So, as we can see, the Bush administration was busy casting around looking for a way to invade Iraq in the months leading up to 9/11, but they lacked the necessary pretext... and then, bang! bang! bang! just like three bolts from heaven the Al-Q phantoms struck.

 

[editor]

Zzzzzzzz. All these topics have been discused a billion times.

I can't see any point in yet another thread on the same subject.

 

[bigfish]

Paul O'Niels book only came out in January while Clarke's was delayed by the White House for 3 months before it appeared in March. Both of these high level defectors cast new light on the topic which have barely been touched on let alone "discussed a billion times."

In addition we still have important testimony to come from Rice tomorrow... to be followed by Cheney and Bush testifying together (so they can better avoid contradicting each other) in private and unsworn (what are they scared of... impeachment?).

 

[editor]

Paul O'Niels book only came out in January while Clarke's was delayed by the White House for 3 months before it appeared in March. Both of these high level defectors cast new light on the topic which have barely been touched on let alone "discussed a billion times."

Er, fela's post refers to it not being Arabs who flew the planes into the WTC, the passport and the copy of the Koran found in the hijacker's cars.

Topics which sure feel like they've been brought up about a billion times before to me.

 

[editor]

So, as we can see, the Bush administration was busy casting around looking for a way to invade Iraq in the months leading up to 9/11, but they lacked the necessary pretext... and then, bang! bang! bang! just like three bolts from heaven the Al-Q phantoms struck.

Slight flaw.

Vietnam.

I don't recall the US feeling the need to mass murder its own civilians and blow up its own cities to provide a pretext for that war, do you?

And how about the 20-odd countries that America has invaded/bombed since WW2? No mass murder of its own citizens and destruction of New York needed either...

Thing is, I don't have much trouble believing that the USG exploited 9/11 to provide an excuse to invade Iraq. That's what politicians too. I've no problem imagining that parts of the USG have lied ever since 9/11 to save their collective asses. They screwed up and everyone's trying to shift the buck to someone else.

But that doesn't mean I have to buy into bonkers, evidence-untroubled theories about (uninvented) remote control planes, wired-up WTC towers, holographic planes, invisible low flying aircraft over Long Island and impossibly faked phone calls.

I'll leave that to dodgy websites. And Joe Vialls.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

On the other hand, any diversion from fela's original post, which seems to be yet again from the assumption that if we don't agree with him we must be supporters of the official version (i.e. you're either with us or against us) would be welcome.

 

[WouldBe]

You appear to think that public opinion is of little or no consequence in matters of war. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Public opinion made no difference in the UK.

 

[editor]

Public opinion made no difference in the UK.

Nor in Spain, for that matter.

Looks like you'll have to try again, bigfish.

 

[fela fan]

On the other hand, any diversion from fela's original post, which seems to be yet again from the assumption that if we don't agree with him we must be supporters of the official version (i.e. you're either with us or against us) would be welcome.

Although there's irony in my original post, you'd understand the exasperation that underlies it if you were consistently referred to as a conspiracy fan for asking questions and saying what you don't believe.

But beyond the irony, i am presenting those with exactly that chance to show me and others if you/they are supporters of the official version. So don't go all Bush on me!!

I want to know what those who spend a lot of time ridiculing others think about the USG version. Why they seen so able to accept it.

Looks like from editor's responses that he's declining. He hasn't read this a billion times at all. This thread is for backers of the USG version to explain their reasons and any cast iron evidence that they have to back it up. It' NEVER BEEN DONE, never mind billions of times!!!!

IT'S YOUR TURN - tell us conspiracy fans why the USG version is acceptable to you.

 

[fela fan]

Ok I'll play along but first answer me this based on the assumption that the USG had a controlling influence in 9/11:


What did the USG stand to gain from 9/11 that it didn't have the power to do already?

I'll play along, but... not yet!!

What is the evidence and the reasons for accepting the USG version? Which with magical flying passports and last minute prayers and revision on how to fly a plane into a building, sounds just like a... CONSPIRACY to me!

 

[pbman]

I'll play along, but... not yet!!

What is the evidence and the reasons for accepting the USG version? Which with magical flying passports and last minute prayers and revision on how to fly a plane into a building, sounds just like a... CONSPIRACY to me!

Damn fela fan, get a new topic for awile.

YOu done warn this one out.

 

[fela fan]

Slight flaw.

Vietnam.

No alternative media. 30 years ago. Different public, less enlightened. People move on, the world moves on.

How about 1066, did that need french public opinion on its side?

Another red herring.

Why don't you put forward your theories and cast iron evidence that supports the incompetence conspiracy?

 

[white rabbit]

I prefer the theory that it was hijackers because it's the simplest and most straightforward explanation available.

I can quite accept that a group of men can overpower the cabin crew of a commercial flight and fly it into a building with only minimal training. There seems nothing at all outlandish in that.

Not everything that the US authorities say about it sounds right. The last flight could have come down in that Pennsyvanian field after a passenger revolt but I'm inclined to think it was intercepted by a missile.

I have yet to hear another explanation that doesn't sound at least harder to believe. Mostly, they're just preposterous. Packing buildings with explosives, controlling the planes remotely, firing missles at the Pentagon, faking the voices of loved ones ...

Bollocks.

 

[bigfish]

Why don't you put forward your theories and cast iron evidence that supports the incompetence conspiracy?

Because none of the paranoid fantasy brigade have got any fela that's fucking why!

All they know for an absolute certainty is that we're wrong!

Why we're all so fucking wrong will remain a secret sealed with severn seals known only to them and God almighty for ever!

I'll bet you £500 right now that none of them will ever offer you a single shred of material evidence in a million fucking years.

Just ask any of Fuckspud United's regular first 11 to actually prove with incontrovertable hard evidence that a single one of the Al-Q terror phantoms ever passed through any of the airports on the morning of September 11 and they'll all run a fucking mile.

But as soon as they get back, they'll waste now time at all in telling you that it's categorically impossible to fool your girlfriend with a phone call doctored by the CIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But if the hijackers cannot be linked to any of the aiports through the CCTV systems and corroborating eye-witness testimony then how could they possibly have hijacked any of the airplanes?

 

[fela fan]

I prefer the theory that it was hijackers because it's the simplest and most straightforward explanation available.

I can quite accept that a group of men can overpower the cabin crew of a commercial flight and fly it into a building with only minimal training. There seems nothing at all outlandish in that.

Not everything that the US authorities say about it sounds right. The last flight could have come down in that Pennsyvanian field after a passenger revolt but I'm inclined to think it was intercepted by a missile.

I have yet to hear another explanation that doesn't sound at least harder to believe. Mostly, they're just preposterous. Packing buildings with explosives, controlling the planes remotely, firing missles at the Pentagon, faking the voices of loved ones ...

Bollocks.

Yeah, well i have a problem with those aspects too, although i never rule anything out where a superpower is involved. Being because power is obtained and expanded upon primarily through deception and lies.

As for the hijackers, the problem i have with the simpler version is that i can't see these men as being of the same mold as suicide bombers. For someone to go to flying schools, immersed in western culture, away from all that 'virgin' brainwashing, intelligent, and prepared to kill themselves... i'm not ruling it out, but it would take some really dedicated people to put themselves in that position.

I guess i'm talking more about the psychology apsect of things rather than the actual skill side of it all.

Hence i am most interested in how the attacks could have occurred if no-one was prepared to kill themselves in that fashion.

 

[fela fan]

I'll bet you £500 right now that none of them will ever offer you a single shred of material evidence in a million fucking years.

Sorry, no bet mate!

Already it's shaping that way. I feel certain the thread won't go the way i'm hoping, coz all anyone can do round these parts is attack the doubters of the USG version.

Here's a wonderful opportunity for them to say why they doubt us: by telling us what they BELIEVE happened, not incessantly droning on about what they believe DIDN'T happen, while at the same time deriding folk as conspiracy fantasists.

Time to see if the shoe fits. But i doubt it will, so sorry, you'll have to find another taker on that bet!

 

[fela fan]

Damn fela fan, get a new topic for awile.

YOu done warn this one out.

Plenty of topics to go round pbman, so if you don't like this one, then hop off it!

But this has NOT been done to death at all. I want to know what those that incessantly scream conspiracy theorist think about the official version of events. [By now we sure know what they DON'T think happened.]

Coz that sounds like the biggest conspiracy of all to me, and i'd like to see if anyone can change my mind.

 

[Lock&Light]

Looks like from editor's responses that he's declining. He hasn't read this a billion times at all. This thread is for backers of the USG version to explain their reasons and any cast iron evidence that they have to back it up. It' NEVER BEEN DONE, never mind billions of times!!!!

While I agree with you that this particular question, (Has anyone any evidence to offer in support of the USG position?) has not been done billions of times, it most certainly has been done at least once before, in a thread started, I believe, by Dr.Jazzz.

If you choose to SHOUT it's wise to check your facts first, fela.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Although there's irony in my original post, you'd understand the exasperation that underlies it if you were consistently referred to as a conspiracy fan for asking questions and saying what you don't believe.

But beyond the irony, i am presenting those with exactly that chance to show me and others if you/they are supporters of the official version. So don't go all Bush on me!!

I want to know what those who spend a lot of time ridiculing others think about the USG version. Why they seen so able to accept it.

Looks like from editor's responses that he's declining. He hasn't read this a billion times at all. This thread is for backers of the USG version to explain their reasons and any cast iron evidence that they have to back it up. It' NEVER BEEN DONE, never mind billions of times!!!!

IT'S YOUR TURN - tell us conspiracy fans why the USG version is acceptable to you.

And who are all these supporters of the official version? I don't see many.

You've said "with us or against us" in relation to this quite clearly in other threads, more than once. You've also said you don't have to provide evidence to back up what you say because it's all just what you feel. Even if I did support the official version I don't see why I would feel obliged to do you a favour you didn't do for me.

And yeah, L&L is right, this thread *has* been done before.

 

[fela fan]

While I agree with you that this particular question, (Has anyone any evidence to offer in support of the USG position?) has not been done billions of times, it most certainly has been done at least once before, in a thread started, I believe, by Dr.Jazzz.

If you choose to SHOUT it's wise to check your facts first, fela.

Actually, if my memory's working correctly, it was me that started that thread Lock. But as i typed my answer, my memory jogged me, and i didn't think it too important to edit, considering the point i was making.

And i'm too lazy to to check facts if they take ages to do so. Wisdom can take a back seat...

Do you have any thoughts on what might constitute support for the US version of events? Anything, or any evidence, that would make a disbeliever believe?

 

[fela fan]

And who are all these supporters of the official version? I don't see many.

You've said "with us or against us" in relation to this quite clearly in other threads, more than once. You've also said you don't have to provide evidence to back up what you say because it's all just what you feel. Even if I did support the official version I don't see why I would feel obliged to do you a favour you didn't do for me.

And yeah, L&L is right, this thread *has* been done before.

Well then, simply don't do me any 'favours'. It's nothing to do with me what you type.

I've never said 'with us or against us', although i might have written ideas to that effect. If i did, then i was wrong. it's a poor position to take. And i can't provide any evidence for the simple reason i wasn't involved in the planning of the attacks.

I'm not looking for 'supporters' of the official version. I'm hoping to give the chance for those that ceaselessly deride those who don't believe the official version to let us all know what it is they do believe happened, rather than telling us what didn't/couldn't have happened.

And many, including the editor, have stated they believe in the 'incompetence' theory, that the USG fucked up big time in not responding to the attacks.

That constitutes to me quite an endorsement for the USG version of events.

Any evidence to support that viewpoint? And how does one explain away the items of USG evidence put forward, that come straight out of an amateur novel that's way too absurd to believe, namely the magical passport, and the last minute revision? Two aspects of what i believe to be a woven conspiracy, that is slowly unravelling.

 

[kyser_soze]

We have been here a thousand times before...

On the subject of the passport surviving the crash...there is undamaged wreckage in the worst place crashes (including bits of human) so the question about the passport can be discounted - it can happen. Same as the 'magic bullet' in Kennedy - when you looked at something as simple as the alignment of the seating in the car you realise that it was that which caused the bullet to progress thru Kennedy into the mayor in the way it did - NOT switching around in flight.

As for everything else...what level of conspiracy are we talking about here? One in which the heads of the CIA, FBI, NSA and the whole Bush govt were involved in? A visit to the PNAC website makes it plain that what they were looking for was a catalyst event to give then the chance to kick off their global domination plans. The problem really is that 9/11 WAS a fuck up for Bush and was a distraction from the main target, which was Iraq. Hence the switch in focus to Afghanistan and then when units such as the 5th Infantry (who had soldiers who could speak various afghani languages and had been on the ground for MONTHS building info networks and trust) were just yanked out and sent to Iraq.

9/11 was a blessing and curse for Bush: blessing because he got to mobilise the army and had a clear 'target' and a pain because invading afghanistan was not on the agenda - what oil does it have? What other resources (other than a huge opium crop) does it have?

Maybe there was a conspiracy by a.n. group to cause 9/11...or maybe it was in fact Al-Q peeps on board. Maybe a conjunction of the two. Do I believe the 'official' story, not completely no. But do I believe this was something the administration allowed to happen by deliberate and willful neglect, or that it was involved in planning the action? No.

Fela - I would suggest reading literature on how both deep cover spying operatives and police officers are trained to stop them 'going native' before concluding that exposure to Western society would be enough to stop someone becoming a suicide bomber.

And what were the incredible flying feats? Taking off and landing an aircraft are the most difficult and dangerous things you can do in a plane. The actual flying once it's in the air isn't absurdly complex to manage if all you have to do is fly it into a building.

 

[FreddyB]

It seems to me theres no way that the the USG were behind the attacks.

Any conspiracy that has since been employed eg. the passport found at ground zero, is to cover incompetence. They could hardly say they knew these people were wondering about the country and were missed.

Even if they needed a huge publicity stunt to sway public opinion its would be an insanity of Hitler proportions to stage 9/11.

The plane that came down in Pensylvania may well have been shot down by the USG, (engine miles from fuselage) and I can see why they wouldn't want to admit this and why they would have done it.

There's no plane wreckage at the Pentagon? ok so wheres the plane and the passengers, let me guess Area 51?

Method Motive and Oppurtunity, measure the theories against this and they dont stack.

 

[fela fan]

And what were the incredible flying feats? Taking off and landing an aircraft are the most difficult and dangerous things you can do in a plane. The actual flying once it's in the air isn't absurdly complex to manage if all you have to do is fly it into a building.

Some fair(ish!) points.

But we haven't been here thousands of times before, this is tackling it from the USG version's proponents' angle. Ie, incompetence.

As for the flying feats, that isn't too bloody bad for a pilot of a huge jet who had to do some last minute revision on how to fly it!!

And sorry, no way can i believe that a passport can survive that ball of flames and float 80 floors down lodging itself in the ash, and then once found, it turns out to be one of the hijacker's!!!! It's more farfetched to me than the phone calls from the third plane! A passport survives, but not the black box???

 

[sparticus]

Can I interest anyone in the screening of 2 911 videos in London on April 15 as detailed on the activism thread?

thanks

 

[editor]

As for the flying feats, that isn't too bloody bad for a pilot of a huge jet who had to do some last minute revision on how to fly it!!

Didn't you ever read a textbook just before going into an exam?

If I'm about to give a lecture on a technical subject, I'll often read related text books on the journey over.

So what's remotely unusual about the pilots doing the same?

 

[WouldBe]

And sorry, no way can i believe that a passport can survive that ball of flames and float 80 floors down lodging itself in the ash, and then once found, it turns out to be one of the hijacker's!!!! It's more farfetched to me than the phone calls from the third plane! A passport survives, but not the black box???

Passports are far more aerodynamic than black boxes. You only needed to see the news coverage of 9/11 to see loads of paper floating down from the WTC. These managed to survive the fire ball.

 

[pbman]

Some fair(ish!) points.



And sorry, no way can i believe that a passport can survive that ball of flames and float 80 floors down lodging itself in the ash, and then once found, it turns out to be one of the hijacker's!!!! It's more farfetched to me than the phone calls from the third plane! A passport survives, but not the black box???

What you belive says more about your imageniation,and life expirance, and nothing about reality.

A passport surviving isn't that strange.

If they all survied you might have a point.

But they didn't,so you don't.