WTC Attack - Just another one for the conspiracy theorists or not?

[Passepartout]

Utterly false?

How do you explain that November 2001 video of Bin Laden laughing with his aides over his WTC success? Among the things he found funny was that some of the hijackers -- his own people -- didn't know the plot was a suicide one.

I wonder how some of the mushier thinkers among you are going to feel when Al Qaeda finally hits you where it hurts? It's only a matter of time.

Given that recent communiques over the Madrid bombings cited grievances over the centuries old battle of Al-Andalus, it seems unlikely that the west is ever going to placate Al Qaeda.

 

[fela fan]

Utterly false?

How do you explain that November 2001 video of Bin Laden laughing with his aides over his WTC success? Among the things he found funny was that some of the hijackers -- his own people -- didn't know the plot was a suicide one.

This sets off alarm bells in my mind.

The video that was shown to us in November 2001, or the video that claims obl was saying this in November 2001?

Obl talking on a video, or someone that we were told was obl?

Just how on earth can hijackers flying planes into buildings not know they were going to be killing themselves? What????????????????? Such a meticulously planned and excecuted mission carried out by people who thought they'd live through it. What the fuck????

Obl publicly, on video, taking the piss out of his footsoldiers??? Is that the best way to recruit more of them???

If this story is true, then i'm sorry, but it sounds like pure US propaganda to me.

 

[editor]

Obl publicly, on video, taking the piss out of his footsoldiers??? Is that the best way to recruit more of them???

If this story is true, then i'm sorry, but it sounds like pure US propaganda to me.

It's such a shame that you didn't see that program.

It was well researched and stuffed full of first hand comments about Bin Laden from people who knew him well. It gave strong insights into his beliefs and motivations and helped makse sense of his relationship with Saudi and the west.

You really should try and get a copy before jumping to more of your 'it's all USG propaganda' rants.

Really.

 

[editor]

[Having said that, always beware 'experts' looking for their bit of tv fame.]

What, you mean people like Robert Fisk and other respected international journalists?

 

[bigfish]

A program on TV earlier showing extensive video footage of Bin Laden in Afghanistan (coupled with interviews with people who met him) made no mention whatsoever of Bin Laden needing dialysis. There was certainly no sign of any medical equipment.

They documentary did, however, say that he had to drink a lot of water because of a liver condition.

I must say that it strikes me as some what odd that a TV documentary allegedly profiling bin Laden should neglect to draw the viewers attention to the fact that he is known to require regular specialist dialysis treatment. One of the specialist urologist bin Laden is reported to have consulted in the recent past is one Dr Terry Calloway a Canadian specialist based at the American hospital in Dubai.

Here are a couple of reports, one from Le Figaro and the other from Dan Rather at CBS:

According to Le Figaro:

"Dubai... was the backdrop of a secret meeting between Osama bin Laden and the local CIA agent in July [2001]. A partner of the administration of the American Hospital in Dubai claims that "public enemy number one" stayed at this hospital between the 4th and 14th of July. While he was hospitalized, bin Laden received visits from many members of his family as well as prominent Saudis and Emiratis. During the hospital stay, the local CIA agent, known to many in Dubai, was seen taking the main elevator of the hospital to go [up] to bin Laden's hospital room. A few days later, the CIA man bragged to a few friends about having visited bin Laden. Authorized sources say that on July 15th, the day after bin Laden returned to Quetta [Pakistan], the CIA agent was called back to headquarters. In the pursuit of its investigations, the FBI discovered "financing agreements" that the CIA had been developing with its "Arab friends" for years. The Dubai meeting is, so it would seem, within the logic of 'a certain American policy.'" (http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/RIC111B.html )

[transcript of CBS report, see http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CBS203A.html ,
see also http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/01/28/eveningnews/main325887.shtml ]

DAN RATHER, CBS ANCHOR: As the United states and its allies in the war on terrorism press the hunt for Osama bin Laden, CBS News has exclusive information tonight about where bin Laden was and what he was doing in the last hours before his followers struck the United States September 11.

<editor: cut and paste odyssey duly snipped again>

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO311A.html

 

[fela fan]

It's such a shame that you didn't see that program.

It was well researched and stuffed full of first hand comments about Bin Laden from people who knew him well. It gave strong insights into his beliefs and motivations and helped makse sense of his relationship with Saudi and the west.

You really should try and get a copy before jumping to more of your 'it's all USG propaganda' rants.

Really.

Yeah, well i would love to have seen it. I have no idea how i can get to see a copy of it. It's a great pity.

But that is an unfair call about me jumping to 'USG propaganda rants'.

Firstly i didn't know passeport was referring to this film you all recently saw, only the existence of a Nov 2001 video. But even so...

Secondly if obl was laughing at some of his people not realising they were on a suicide mission when flying planes into buildings (I mean how on earth does one expect to survive such a mission??), then my question remains valid:

"Such a meticulously planned and excecuted mission carried out by people who thought they'd live through it."... ???

Can you explain this bit to me editor? I truly am fascinated by this description of events by obl. How can people primed to fly jets into the WTCs expect that they'd not be on suicide missions?? Did we miss the parachutes?!!

This really baffles me, and was the only reason i brought the USG into it. Not past threads. I remain open to all possiblities, while retaining my suspicions as to what happened. What passerport's post did was simply feed my suspicions.

But if you have a logical answer to my questions, i'll accept.

 

[Streathamite]

Utterly false?

How do you explain that November 2001 video of Bin Laden laughing with his aides over his WTC success? Among the things he found funny was that some of the hijackers -- his own people -- didn't know the plot was a suicide one.

I wonder how some of the mushier thinkers among you are going to feel when Al Qaeda finally hits you where it hurts? It's only a matter of time.

Given that recent communiques over the Madrid bombings cited grievances over the centuries old battle of Al-Andalus, it seems unlikely that the west is ever going to placate Al Qaeda.

and now you are completely misreading me. In the same way that the IRA were (to use Ken's immortal phrase) "not just criminals and murderers", ditto al-Q.
Let me explain.
You are not inherently more sane,rational, intelligent or principled than these people - you are merely coming from a vastly different perspective. Therefore, if you accept that a thought process lies behind their actions above and beyond sociopathy, you must accept a belief system does as well.
Furthermore, it is one which clearly has a very powerful impact on thousands of people, willing to risk their lives, even to certainly sacrifice them, for a greater cause. (y'know, like all that patriotism stuff)
sorry, is this too 'woolly' for you?
Al-qaeada have one central theorem; that their muslim lands are threatened by a zionist-crusader Imperial conquest.
they have 2 short term demands (I've already stated 'em), and one optimum demand - complete arab/muslim control of all M East nations. and the numbers of innocent civilians killed by them does not even begin to compare with (f'rinstance) those murdered in Iraq, or Afghanistan (by BOTH Superpowers), or Chechnya-and that's just off the top of the head. So what makes the murders done in your name any more sane, any more acceptable, guided any more by a clear rationale? The fact that the rationale conmes from a cultural position that makes more sense to you?
Either way, they have a plan above and beyond slaughter for the sake of slaughter.

 

[fela fan]

What, you mean people like Robert Fisk and other respected international journalists?

No, i mean 'experts' that get wheeled onto programmes in reaction to events. Names that no-one's ever heard of. Pontificating, speaking stuff that the average viewer has no reference point to in their own lives, thus might be likely to believe since they've been introduced to the viewers as 'experts' in their fields.

Fisk i'd always be likely to take seriously.

 

[editor]

Here are a couple of reports, one from Le Figaro and the other from Dan Rather at CBS:

I've warned you about this before: please do not post up reams of cut and paste text.

Kindly take the time to précis the arguments and facts being presented and then offer a link where anyone interested can read the full story for themselves.

Posting up massive cut and paste odysseys is not only against the terms of the Posting FAQ, it needlessly clogs up pages and the content invariably gets ignored by the majority of users.

Please note that this applies to all posters. Large cut and pastes are only acceptable when the material is relevant, pertinent and unavailable elsewhere.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Hindsight makes things so easy. We forget that we now live in a different world, and we see things differently.

it's not a different world johnny it's the same one same corps in control yadda yadda.. I didn't take much notice of it tbh, but then i didn't take much notice of the omagh bomb either...but then as you say this kind of thing never happened before, exepct in say arab countries, irish communities, el salvador, eccudor, niguracuiga need we go on....

There we have it folks the inablitly to look out side of ones boarders and face reality....

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

<sigh> but he HAS made demands.
And we have granted one!
his theory is that there is a zionist/crusader western Imperial conquest of the muslim lands in the offing, which all good muslims should resist. specifically he wants ALL US troop emplacements/military activity on the Arabian peninsular/The gulf to end (and-above all-no US troops near muslim holy places), and for the USA to abandon Israel or force her to a negotiated, fair settlement.
The USa has taken all troops away from one key site, and radically scaled back its' Saudi presence. Hence my question.
The idea that al-q are just a bunch of lunatics who kill and murder indiscriminately - almost for fun - or because they simply wanna wipe out the west completely, is utterly false.

actually we have so far caved on 2 of the 3 main demands if the truth be known...

1) end all sanctions against iraq - done (all be it by spurious means)
2) removed the military pressence in Saudi (not the whole arab peninsula,) - done...
3) that palestine be set up as a seperate and independent state free to rule itself, - (one wonders if the 'wall' and sharrons increased aggression, and the recent 'Hit' are the result of this, final cry before the storm?)

 

[Jazzz]

Utterly false?

How do you explain that November 2001 video of Bin Laden laughing with his aides over his WTC success? Among the things he found funny was that some of the hijackers -- his own people -- didn't know the plot was a suicide one.

Very simple. The man in the video seems very different to other published photos of Bin Laden. Amazing that these videos just happen to fall into the hands of the CIA just when they need them... yet they couldn't find Osama himself.

 

[Passepartout]

that falls into the "ridiculous conspiracy theory conveniently fabricated to support inconsistencies in my worldview" category.

 

[editor]

Amazing that these videos just happen to fall into the hands of the CIA just when they need them... yet they couldn't find Osama himself.

Did you see the program about Bin Laden?

Oh, and talking of 'amazing' things - how about the amazing tale of the two aeroplanes flying dangerously, illegally and "amazingly" slow and low in an "amazing" formation over the Long Island rush hour traffic?

Amazingly, only two people in the whole of Long Island (pop 1.5 million) managed to spot this "amazing" sight and - even more amazingly - they just happened to track down and get in touch with the one person who just happened to have a conspiracy theory that exactly fitted their story!

And - even more amazingly - they insisted that no one else should know their identity!

And if that wasn't amazing enough, what's really amazing is that some conspiracy fans swallow this ludicrously improbable and completely uncorroborated fantasy and believe it to be true without a shred of supporting evidence!

 

[flimsier]

Dr Jazz, IMO, grasps at too many straws in these debates.

MEanwhile, good questions remain unanswered.

The Michael Moore questions (apart from the last attempted [but not] funny one) were pertinent.

Meanwhile, if Dr Jazz admitted he was wrong on some things. On the obvious things, and looked into stuff more carefully, he'd get given a bigger hearing.

For example, I'm a 9/11 sceptic, (I want to know why the fucking passports were claimed to have been found, for example) but I don't believe it proves the planes were remote controlled (obviously) or whatever... but I'm not allowed to debate these things rationally because people are insistent on pushing their point of view, with or without evidence.

I don't even feel I can comment often, which is sad.




Now, he's going to pulverise me at scrabble for criticising him

 

[fela fan]

And if that wasn't amazing enough, what's really amazing is that some conspiracy fans swallow this ludicrously improbable and completely uncorroborated fantasy and believe it to be true without a shred of supporting evidence!

Taking up your theme of amazing things, i see you have declined to address my questions re that film you saw!

Again, i'd like to say how truly amazing it is that on this film of obl, the man laughs about how some hijackers didn't know they were on suicide missions.

So that means we have the unbelievably amazing situation where people intelligent enough to fly planes unerringly accurately (granted though, they had to do a last minute bit of revision) into tall buildings EXPECTED TO SURVIVE.

Were they told that the parachutes weren't working at the last minute?!!

How do you editor, or anyone else who saw this film of obl explain this amazing claim by obl?? That the hijackers didn't know they were on a suicided mission. Was it that they didn't know they were going to have to visit a tall building on their flightpath??

To me, that is one helluvan amazing claim by obl to be taken at face value by anyone watching the film.

Unless i'm missing something, but that was and is why i'm asking questions...

 

[flimsier]

fela fan - I think it may have had something to do with the fundamentalist view of the Islamic religion and what they saw as their purpose.

Sorry to state the obvious, like.

 

[bigfish]

A former FBI translator told the 9/11 commission that the bureau had detailed information well before Sept. 11, 2001, that terrorists were likely to attack the U.S. with airplanes.

March 26, 2004 "Salon.com" A former FBI wiretap translator with top-secret security clearance, who has been called "very credible" by Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, has told Salon she recently testified to the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States that the FBI had detailed information prior to Sept. 11, 2001, that a terrorist attack involving airplanes was being plotted.*

Referring to the Homeland Security Department's color-coded warnings instituted in the wake of 9/11, the former translator, Sibel Edmonds, told Salon, "We should have had orange or red-type of alert in June or July of 2001. There was that much information available." Edmonds is offended by the Bush White House claim that it lacked foreknowledge of the kind of attacks made by al-Qaida on 9/11. "Especially after reading National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice [Washington Post Op-Ed on March 22] where she said, we had no specific information whatsoever of domestic threat or that they might use airplanes. That's an outrageous lie. And documents can prove it's a lie."*

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5956.htm

 

[fela fan]

fela fan - I think it may have had something to do with the fundamentalist view of the Islamic religion and what they saw as their purpose.

Sorry to state the obvious, like.

It's a credible answer flimsier, but i wouldn't go so far to state it as being the obvious one at all!

I'd still like to hear editor's take on this aspect of the film, and anyone else's who saw it.

And your answer does require a certain amount of cultural translation, which is heavily dependent on subjectivity.

Nah, on second thoughts i still want to know how obl can say some of the hijackers didn't know they were on a suicide mission...

 

[flimsier]

Wow. Its credible but not fantastically exciting enough for you?

Please explain to me how this cultural translation means that people who are muslim do not believe in the afterlife, despite their desperate situation leading to hoep (and belief) and that desperate situation being fed by the US and other WEstern arseholes being exactly that.

Jenny Tong explained how she could understand why suicide bombers became suicide bombers.

I think I can understand that. But I think that in desperate circumstances, where you live in virtual hell because of the US, you might think something awaits you as a martyr.

Credible, but probably not interesting enough for you. And sadly, people like you detract from the very real questions which need to be asked of the Bush administration (and have now been lost) around the whole event, just because you are intent on convincing one or two people about a particularly irrelevant (and substantially incorrect) point.

One very big for you. And I've read all Mid-East threads with the same attitude to you!

 

[editor]

A former FBI translator told the 9/11 commission that the bureau had detailed information well before Sept. 11, 2001, that terrorists were likely to attack the U.S. with airplanes
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5956.htm

Are you capable of original thought, bigfish, or is endlessly regurgitating other people's words without offering any analysis or opinion of your own as good as it's going to get?

Sadly for you, your tactics aren't exactly original or likely to impress:

Win online arguments!

9. Bamboozle with links
If your opponent's tenacity is proving too much for you, try a Google counter-attack. This involves posting up an endless stream of vaguely related links, insisting that there's more than enough evidence contained in the 50+ linked sites to crush any counter argument. Ensure you keep the references vague and preferably link to pages that are stuffed full of even more links. If your enemy can't find the evidence they're demanding, blame them for their lack of research skills - after all, you've already provided them with ample resources.

http://www.urban75.com/Mag/argument.html

 

[fela fan]

Wow. Its credible but not fantastically exciting enough for you?

Please explain to me how this cultural translation means that people who are muslim do not believe in the afterlife, despite their desperate situation leading to hoep (and belief) and that desperate situation being fed by the US and other WEstern arseholes being exactly that.

Jenny Tong explained how she could understand why suicide bombers became suicide bombers.

I think I can understand that. But I think that in desperate circumstances, where you live in virtual hell because of the US, you might think something awaits you as a martyr.

Credible, but probably not interesting enough for you. And sadly, people like you detract from the very real questions which need to be asked of the Bush administration (and have now been lost) around the whole event, just because you are intent on convincing one or two people about a particularly irrelevant (and substantially incorrect) point.

One very big for you. And I've read all Mid-East threads with the same attitude to you!

Oh well, people like me eh?? That's good debating technique. By the way posters i don't know flimsier, and he don't know me.

So, the people flying those planes were living in 'desperate situations' and 'virtual hell'?? Pretty good flying skills were required of those hijackers. Do these two aspects add up to you? Coz they don't to me.

People with such skills and education must realise that whether have a next life or not, they will be about to kill themselves off from this one. Or do muslims not think like that? Which is why i mentioned the bit about cultural translation. You seem to know a lot about these muslims. Tell me more about how they don't know they're on one suicide mission in order to gain their next life.

That Liberal mp talked of suicide bombers. Not suicide hijackers. You don't see the difference?

And one more thing boyo, for someone who knows me so well, i'm not after 'convincing one or two' people of what i believe. You really have no idea about me do you...

Tell me again, how can obl claim laughingly (and i presume in english if it was a film shown to english speaking audiences, so at least we're not dealing with dodgy language translations) that these pilots cum hijackers DIDN'T KNOW THEY WERE GOING TO BE KILLING THEMSELVES.

Do yourself a favour and deal with the message, not your dodgy and faulty perceptions of posters here on urban.

 

[Passepartout]

Again, i'd like to say how truly amazing it is that on this film of obl, the man laughs about how some hijackers didn't know they were on suicide missions.

So that means we have the unbelievably amazing situation where people intelligent enough to fly planes unerringly accurately (granted though, they had to do a last minute bit of revision) into tall buildings EXPECTED TO SURVIVE.

Unless i'm missing something, but that was and is why i'm asking questions...

Before you take on a smartass sarcastic tone like above, you really should make sure you've thought things through all the way. Otherwise, you end up looking silly.

The answer is simple. Obviously, the pilots knew they were on a suicide mission. The people that Bin Laden was cackling about who didn't know the suicidal nature of the mission were the rest of the hijacker crews. The majority of the hijackers had nothing to do with flying the plane -- they were "muscle" whose job was to subdue the passengers and crew.

There was no need for *them* to know the mission was a suicide, and both Bin Laden's videotaped cackling, as well as evidence of the lives some of the hijackers led right up to the event, which suggested not all of them were preparing to meet their maker and (the ultimate deranged fantasy of religious fundamentalism characterized by deep seated hatred and fear of female sexuality) 72 prepubescent virgins -- supports this.

It also makes total sense as a strategy, because it would be far easier to recruit terrorists for a non-suicide mission than for a suicide mission. While Hamas brainwashes impoverished, unsophisticated Palestinian youth into suicide missions in a matter of weeks, it would take far more effort to keep someone in a suicidal mindset over the matter of *years* it took this plot to unfold, especially because the suicidalists had to move through American society and had plenty of time to reflect on their fate and the vicious nature of their deeds. Such grim determination is rare.

The one down side is that if Al Qaeda's planning to do this again, recruits might be a bit more suspicious of their final end.

 

[fela fan]

Your reply deserves a fuller response, but i'm off out now, so will do one later.

But in a nutshell you are offering a subjective view of what happened here.

Are you telling me they didn't know that the plane they'd be hijacking was to fly into buildings? Where did they think they were taking the planes?

I presume they knew they'd be boarding aircraft?

And my 'smartass sarcastic' tone is contextualised by reading editor's previous post, my previous repartee with editor on these forums, and was even addressed to editor.

He'll know what i was doing, harmless debate with him. AND HAVING A LAUGH.

 

[Passepartout]

Well, Fela Fan, regarding your smartass tone, it certainly came across that way but it's very easy to misinterpret these things on boards, so apologies.

Regarding not knowing the plane they'd be hijacking was to fly into buildings, I don't see what's so hard to believe about this. There have been many terrorist hijackings in the history of aviation, and not one hijacked plane -- ever -- had been deliberately flown into a building until that point. They were always flown somewhere and passengers held for ransom, and occasionally killed. But none have been suicide missions. There was no reason the non-pilot hijackers would have to believe this mission was anything different.

And there is nothing subjective about any of this, Bin Laden actually said in that video that some of them didn't know. Unless you believe the preposterous theory that the video is fake, that's really about as objective as you can get.

 

[fela fan]

Well, Fela Fan, regarding your smartass tone, it certainly came across that way but it's very easy to misinterpret these things on boards, so apologies.

Regarding not knowing the plane they'd be hijacking was to fly into buildings, I don't see what's so hard to believe about this. There have been many terrorist hijackings in the history of aviation, and not one hijacked plane -- ever -- had been deliberately flown into a building until that point. They were always flown somewhere and passengers held for ransom, and occasionally killed. But none have been suicide missions. There was no reason the non-pilot hijackers would have to believe this mission was anything different.

And there is nothing subjective about any of this, Bin Laden actually said in that video that some of them didn't know. Unless you believe the preposterous theory that the video is fake, that's really about as objective as you can get.

There's still lots of assumptions that you're making though.

I'll make one too: these hijackers that we're told (presumably by obl, and assuming he was telling things as the truth of the matter), were ignorant about their impending deaths, surely knew they were working for Al Q, no? Now everyone knows that working for Al Q means terrorist acts. Hijacking a plane just to go somewhere else is not a terrorist action (certainly not an Al Q one), and i don't see how the hijackers could have construed it this way.

I thought the people persuaded to do work for terrorist organisations would expect their business to be murder. Whether they know they are to die at the same time is another question. But it seems very difficult for me to comprehend that these hijackers thought they were just going to divert the plane to somewhere else.

Such a brilliantly organised operation must have taken a lot of practice, a lot of preparation, and a lot of time for all those selected to do the job. Yet we are being asked to accept that some of them just had no idea they were going to not be involved a terrorist act.

Furthermore, the line goes, plenty of these people are more than willing to volunteer for suicide missions due to their expectation of a new wondrous life in heaven. So with a plethora of volunteers to do Al Q's business, why on earth would it be necessary to hide from these hijackers the fact that they would be dying in their mission?

I thought plenty were more than eager to do these terrorist acts. They must have known, even if they weren't told, that by hijacking a plane, they'd be crashing it into something.

It really defies my imagination that such a colossal act of terrorism, the biggest ever, could be carried out by hijackers who knew not of their impending doom. And that an organisation that has so many willing to do the killing for them, and to die for the cause, needed to hide from the hijackers that they would die.

 

[CaroleK]

You may have seen this before, ed, but I've only just stumbled on it. And, as before, as I always WILL, I brought it straight to U75 for a discuss.

And as to my own opinion - as if you weren't already familiar with my views on this - I think that if a group of military and civilian pilots, who were concerned enough to get together and spend their own time deliberating on the subject, should be given due attention. Esp when a seasoned expert in the field - you usually listen to these people, ed - concludes this:

'A member of the inquiry team, a US Air Force officer who flew over 100 sorties during the Vietnam war, told the press conference: “Those birds (commercial airliners) either had a crack fighter pilot in the left seat, or they were being manoeuvred by remote control.” '

I realise you have to push the opp opinion in order to make this board more vibrant, ed, but you're really doing a disservice to posters, and people just passing thro, by continually insisting that western special forces are too incapable/innocent/incompetent to organise, or at the very least take advantage of, known imminent attrocities.

How could you POSS ask bigfish if he's capable of original thought???!!! He's def more capable than you. Likewise Dr Jazz. And felafan is asking sensible questions as far as I'm concerned. Its YOU who is always trashing these debates. All you seem to spout off is the 'official' version. Well, some of us have moved on from these Hollywood renderings of modern attrocities.

Do keep up with us, old chap.

 

[Loki]

How could you POSS ask bigfish if he's capable of original thought???!!! He's def more capable than you. Likewise Dr Jazz.

roflmao

 

[editor]

How could you POSS ask bigfish if he's capable of original thought???!!! He's def more capable than you.

bigfish's recent 'contributions' here have exclusively been Posting FAQ-busting cut and paste odysseys. Perhaps regurgitating other people's words passes for cutting edge independent thought in your world, but it doesn't in mine.

Talking of which, what's your opinion of what really happened?

Quite why you think the two-year old ramblings of some obscure author on some quaint little website bear repeating is anyone's guess. Perhaps you might like to offer an opinion as to why these 'revelations' have been completely ignored by the rest of the world's mainstream media?

You would have thought that journalists all over the world would be scrambling to retell this amazing story. So how come it's only stuck on some parochial backwater? Any ideas?

 

[Passepartout]

Now everyone knows that working for Al Q means terrorist acts. Hijacking a plane just to go somewhere else is not a terrorist action (certainly not an Al Q one), and i don't see how the hijackers could have construed it this way.

I think the PLO and the Baader-Meinhoff gang of the 1970s would have been very disappointed to learn that their plane hijackings were not terrorist actions.

It really defies my imagination that such a colossal act of terrorism, the biggest ever, could be carried out by hijackers who knew not of their impending doom.

Then you need to become more imaginative. Al Quaeda has certainy been nothing if not imaginative.

Think harder about what I said earlier. This wasn't an ordinary suicide mission -- it required people to prepare for it for *years*. And these were well-educated people capable of living without notice among their victims, not poor saps like your typical Palestinian teenage bomber who feels like he has nothing to lose. It's not so easy to find people like that.

It's not consistent with human nature, even for insane, hate-driven, humanity-detesting religious fanaticists, to be suicidal. Given too much time and reflection, some people may back out. For each additional person on a mission, the risk of someone backing out, and thus the whole mission being compromised, increases exponentially.

There is really no reason that anyone on those missions other than the person actually flying the plane had to know the mission was suicidal, at least until the last moments when it became obvious the planes would crash. Logic virtually *demands* that the number of people in on the secret is kept to a minimum.

That, plus the fact that OBL actually *said* this is how it's done, make a pretty strong case. Given your respect for the man, I don't see why you can't accept his own word. Do you find it disturbing that he might have so much disregard for the lives of even his own people?

Personally I find it disturbing that he actually found this aspect of it *funny!* What a jokester!

And what about all the Muslims who worked in the WTC? He didn't seem to mind too much about turning them into involuntary martyrs either did he? According to the Arab-American Anti-Discrimination Committee, more than 200 Muslims were killed that day. Or is it that just by working there they had become corrupt westerners and deserved to die?