WTC Attack - Just another one for the conspiracy theorists or not?
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Yeah, well some of us don't have broadband, so things take fucking ages to download.
Can you give us a resume of what's on the film mate?
And if you're sympathetic, then using the term 'conspiracy theorist' is not a good idea. It's a catch-all term used by some narrow minded thinkers to descibe anyone who asks questions of weird happenings.
Often such people also deride the 'conspiracy theorists' as people they have somehow deemed feel they're superior to themselves.
The whole topic is landmined.
Can you give us a resume of what's on the film mate?
And if you're sympathetic, then using the term 'conspiracy theorist' is not a good idea. It's a catch-all term used by some narrow minded thinkers to descibe anyone who asks questions of weird happenings.
Often such people also deride the 'conspiracy theorists' as people they have somehow deemed feel they're superior to themselves.
The whole topic is landmined.
It's a timeline of the events of the morning of September 11th juxtaposing images of Bush reading to the kids in Florida while the attacks are going on in New York.
It takes a series of quotes and reports to show how Bush claimed to have seen the first crash before going in to the school, was told about the second while reading in the calssroom, and how he did nothing for a further half- hour.
Nothing really we haven't seen before, but in the context of the US election campaigns it's encouraging. This film is in response to the campaign ads and docudramas that have portrayed Bush as a Harrison Ford - action- man hero recently.
It takes a series of quotes and reports to show how Bush claimed to have seen the first crash before going in to the school, was told about the second while reading in the calssroom, and how he did nothing for a further half- hour.
Nothing really we haven't seen before, but in the context of the US election campaigns it's encouraging. This film is in response to the campaign ads and docudramas that have portrayed Bush as a Harrison Ford - action- man hero recently.
The Old Sarge
Professionally idle
And just what was he supossed to do?
There are, and have long been, agencies and organizations to respond and react in times of disaster and crisis.
What was Bush to do in the minutes immediately following the two crashes into the WTC? Interupt/interfere with those agencies while they tried to figure out what was happening?
It can be said that one of the marks of good, effective leadership is to let those people/organizations responsible for things do their thing ... without interference.
What, as an alternative, would you have him do?
The Old Sarge
There are, and have long been, agencies and organizations to respond and react in times of disaster and crisis.
What was Bush to do in the minutes immediately following the two crashes into the WTC? Interupt/interfere with those agencies while they tried to figure out what was happening?
It can be said that one of the marks of good, effective leadership is to let those people/organizations responsible for things do their thing ... without interference.
What, as an alternative, would you have him do?
The Old Sarge
7 Questions for George of Arabia by Michael Moore
Question #1: Is it true that the bin Ladens have had business relations with you and your family off and on for the past 25 years?
Question #2: What is the "special relationship" between the Bushes and the Saudi royal family?
Question #3: Who attacked the United States on September 11 - a guy on dialysis from a cave in Afghanistan, or your friends, Saudia Arabia?
Question #4: Why did you allow a private Saudi jet to fly around the U.S. in the days after September 11 and pick up members of the bin Laden family and then fly them out of the country without a proper investigation by the FBI?
Question #5: Why are you protecting the "Second Amendment rights" of potential terrorists?
Question #6: Were you aware that while you were governor of Texas, the Taliban traveled to Texas to meet with your oil and gas company friends?
Question #7: What exactly was that look on your face in the Florida classroom on the morning of September 11 when your chief of staff told you, "America is under attack"?
More here and here
Question #1: Is it true that the bin Ladens have had business relations with you and your family off and on for the past 25 years?
Question #2: What is the "special relationship" between the Bushes and the Saudi royal family?
Question #3: Who attacked the United States on September 11 - a guy on dialysis from a cave in Afghanistan, or your friends, Saudia Arabia?
Question #4: Why did you allow a private Saudi jet to fly around the U.S. in the days after September 11 and pick up members of the bin Laden family and then fly them out of the country without a proper investigation by the FBI?
Question #5: Why are you protecting the "Second Amendment rights" of potential terrorists?
Question #6: Were you aware that while you were governor of Texas, the Taliban traveled to Texas to meet with your oil and gas company friends?
Question #7: What exactly was that look on your face in the Florida classroom on the morning of September 11 when your chief of staff told you, "America is under attack"?
More here and here
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
In Bloom said:
Hindsight makes things so easy. We forget that we now live in a different world, and we see things differently.
On Sept 11, I heard about it when my kid came to our bedroom door and said that a plane, or a couple of planes had hit the WTC. Sounded bad, but I think I said something like 'I'll be up soon'.
Then she said that the pentagon had been hit, and that's when I sat up and turned on the tv.
Planes hitting big buildings, seemed like a bad thing, but your mind thought 'accident'. It wasn't till it was three of them, and one of the targets was the Pentagon, that you began to have an inkling of what was happening.
Since nothing like that had ever happened before, no one thought about it in that way. Now of course, it's the first place that our mind takes us.
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
In Bloom said:
The world is different. There have been two wars in the last couple of years, terrorists are blowing things up in various countries, our civil liberties and rights are being curtailed without a whimper, and there's more to come.
That stuff is happening largely because of people accepting the 'new world' arguement, IMO. The civil liberties and rights are being curtailed because people are swallowing the line that they have to be curtailed because 'the world is different', the 9/11 attacks are used for justification for war, but they would have just found another justification anyway, a lot of terrorists are blowing things up because they are pissed off about US foreign policy (see above).Johnny Canuck2 said:
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
In Bloom said:
It's happening whether people accept it or not.
..and your president still can't address/answer legitimate questions surrounding the attacks on the WTC and the Pentagon?Johnny Canuck2 said:
As for your civil liberties old arse...yes they are being curtailed without a whimper, so why are you people allowing this situation to continue?
editor
hiraethified
A program on TV earlier showing extensive video footage of Bin Laden in Afghanistan (coupled with interviews with people who met him) made no mention whatsoever of Bin Laden needing dialysis. There was certainly no sign of any medical equipment.vimto said:
They documentary did, however, say that he had to drink a lot of water because of a liver condition.
Johnny Canuck2 said:
We??? Now you just speak for yourself, and don't patronisingly speak for the whole world. This is an arrogant american trait that seems to have rubbed off on their northern neighbours...
I do not live in a different world at all. It is just the same to me. I do not see things differently at all. I would hazard a guess there are many like me from many countries, living in many countries.
A paltry 3000 deaths, if a bit spectacularly done, and you and so many western commentators drearily inform us the world has changed forever. Ah fuck man, such portentatious messages! Oh the gloom of it all! Oh how terrible! How can we ever get back the good times?!
The world's only changed coz so many in the west have convinced their own minds it has. But notice that it's in the mind, the world is just the same as it was before that day.
Things in the world of nature and people just getting on with their lives are carrying on just the way they were on sept 10, 2001.
You should try and contemplate the thousands of lives (in much much greater numbers than that bloody 911 thing) that get lost to the vagaries of nature, and the policies of the US.
We. Since when were you a global spokesman/expert? And just like the ones we get on tv, you only speak from a limited, arrogant western perspective, as if it's the same for everyone else on the planet.
Well, it ain't mate.
editor said:
Interested to know mate if the programme mentioned any time frame. Did it say when the footage you saw of him was filmed?
The thing about this obl character is that usually footage is seen of him, aired, but a timeframe seems to be impossible to confirm.
I remember reading some interviews of him speaking to R Fisk, and obviously we knew when those happened, coz we had Fisk's word.
Incidentally, i recall agreeing with nearly everything obl said. This was pre-911.
Colonel Donn de Grand Pre
'A group of military and civilian US pilots, under the chairmanship of Colonel Donn de Grand, after deliberating non-stop for 72 hours, has concluded that the flight crews of the four passenger airliners, involved in the September 11th tragedy, had no control over their aircraft.
In a detailed press communiqué the inquiry stated: “The so-called terrorist attack was in fact a superbly executed military operation carried out against the USA, requiring the utmost professional military skill in command, communications and control. It was flawless in timing, in the choice of selected aircraft to be used as guided missiles and in the coordinated delivery of those missiles to their pre-selected targets.” '
'Dr. Paul Roberts, former Assistant Secretary of the US Treasury, and presently Senior Research Fellow at Stamford University, has lent his support to the independent inquiry findings. He also claims that Osama Bin Laden was not responsible for September 11th. The doctor has challenged President Bush to make public the so-called “irrefutable evidence” incriminating Bin Laden. '
See also what else the Colonel says .
Plus the interview .
And another related site that I've just found .
'A group of military and civilian US pilots, under the chairmanship of Colonel Donn de Grand, after deliberating non-stop for 72 hours, has concluded that the flight crews of the four passenger airliners, involved in the September 11th tragedy, had no control over their aircraft.
In a detailed press communiqué the inquiry stated: “The so-called terrorist attack was in fact a superbly executed military operation carried out against the USA, requiring the utmost professional military skill in command, communications and control. It was flawless in timing, in the choice of selected aircraft to be used as guided missiles and in the coordinated delivery of those missiles to their pre-selected targets.” '
'Dr. Paul Roberts, former Assistant Secretary of the US Treasury, and presently Senior Research Fellow at Stamford University, has lent his support to the independent inquiry findings. He also claims that Osama Bin Laden was not responsible for September 11th. The doctor has challenged President Bush to make public the so-called “irrefutable evidence” incriminating Bin Laden. '
See also what else the Colonel says .
Plus the interview .
And another related site that I've just found .
editor
hiraethified
Yes. It interviewed several people who had met him personally. Some of the footage was from his time in the Torra Borra caves. Robert Fisk was also interviewed. Hearing first hand stories from people who had met Bin Laden provided a valuable insight into Bin Laden's background and motives.fela fan said:
Did you also agree with Bin Laden's approval of various terrorist attacks, btw?
editor
hiraethified
Err, this has already been posted many times last year, so instead of regurgitating obscure old news from truly obscure local websites, why don't you provide some insights of your own?CaroleK said:
I'm not really interested in what some unknown hack on 'Portugal's Weekend Newspaper in English' thought in 2002: what's your opinion of what happened?
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
excellent show. (I take it we mean the "I met Bin Laden" one, or some such title).editor said:
It traced his motivations so well that it does beg the question,; now that US troops are out of Saudi, If Palestine does get statehood in W Bank & Gaza-will he (OBL) therefore retire satisfied?
And if not, why not?
Red Jezza said:
Admittedly I didn't see the show you were talking about, but shortly after the Madrid bombings there were numerous al-qaeda experts doing the rounds on newsnight and C4 news and this question came up. Will al-qaeda ever stop?
From what I could gather it seemed that every single expert to the last man agreed that al-qaeda perceived itself to be the direct inheritors of saladin and the assassins' legacy. In other words they see the west as crusaders and themselves as glorious muslim freedom fighters in a perpetual battle that's being waged continuously. This fits with the reality of al-qaeda never offering any demands on the west, but frequently issuing imperatives to muslims encouraging the wholesale destruction/conversion of the West. If they were to ever actually offer demands that would raise the possiblity of negotiation as well as necessitating the recognition of the West as a valid corporal body rather than a teeming mass of unclean infidels. Essentially we too godless to even place any demands on.
In essence then al-qaeda will never stop.
Osama will never give up.
editor said:
I'd love to have seen this, one of the (few!) penalties of not living in the motherland any more.
Naturally i don't agree with his approval of various terrorist attacks. I hope that's the answer you expected - i'm hardly a bloodthirsty ignorant tyrant you know!!
But what i do believe over this whole bloody thing is that people/nations will in the fullness of time reap what they sow in their lives.
So when 911 happened, it seemed perfectly natural to me. And furthermore, as a NATION, i'm afraid the american people as a whole can have no valid complaints about what happened.
If you blast other peoples and nations to pieces over a long period of time, how on earth can they expect no reprisals??
It surely is nothing more nothing less than the law of nature at work?
If western countries such as US and UK want to avoid this sort of terrorist nonsense in the future, they'd better look within to find the answers...
Diamond said:
But Diamond, and in vague follow up to my reply just now to editor, let's remember that obl and his cotegerie don't do the dirty work themselves, rather they use their footsoldiers. Just like bush and blair.
So although al qaeda may never give up, if the conditions are right, then they will find it very much more difficult to sign up any footsoldiers to do their insane work. So they mightn't have much choice.
[Having said that, always beware 'experts' looking for their bit of tv fame.]
Like if the west use their undoubted money, power, and influence to make this world a just one. If obl's potential bombers have enough food to eat, shelter, families, sport, chit chat, and a peaceful life, i cannot see many of them being foolhardy enough to blow themselves up for some weird man's cause.
And i put the onus on the west to make the first moves. They did with the violence, now let them do so with pursuing more peaceful means.
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
<sigh> but he HAS made demands.
And we have granted one!
his theory is that there is a zionist/crusader western Imperial conquest of the muslim lands in the offing, which all good muslims should resist. specifically he wants ALL US troop emplacements/military activity on the Arabian peninsular/The gulf to end (and-above all-no US troops near muslim holy places), and for the USA to abandon Israel or force her to a negotiated, fair settlement.
The USa has taken all troops away from one key site, and radically scaled back its' Saudi presence. Hence my question.
The idea that al-q are just a bunch of lunatics who kill and murder indiscriminately - almost for fun - or because they simply wanna wipe out the west completely, is utterly false.
And we have granted one!
his theory is that there is a zionist/crusader western Imperial conquest of the muslim lands in the offing, which all good muslims should resist. specifically he wants ALL US troop emplacements/military activity on the Arabian peninsular/The gulf to end (and-above all-no US troops near muslim holy places), and for the USA to abandon Israel or force her to a negotiated, fair settlement.
The USa has taken all troops away from one key site, and radically scaled back its' Saudi presence. Hence my question.
The idea that al-q are just a bunch of lunatics who kill and murder indiscriminately - almost for fun - or because they simply wanna wipe out the west completely, is utterly false.
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