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World War III

WhyLikeThis said:
Again this is bollocks. What Musk is amplifying is the message Putin wants him to convey. It’s what Putin wants us to believe is his thinking. Musk is being manipulated and you’re falling for it.
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So Putin doesn't represent a prominent strand in Russian political thinking then? Like he's making it up as he goes along?
 
RD2003 said:
So Putin doesn't represent a prominent strand in Russian political thinking then? Like he's making it up as he goes along?
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Use your noggin. Putin is an ex-KGB case officer, he is a professional manipulator. What is repeatably documented is his total commitment to not allowing anyone know him or what he values. He wants decision makers and target populations to believe the spiel Musk is promoting. This will not be his true position but the message that he has calculated will give him an advantage.
 
WhyLikeThis said:
Use your noggin. Putin is an ex-KGB case officer, he is a professional manipulator. What is repeatably documented is his total commitment to not allowing anyone know him or what he values. He wants decision makers and target populations to believe the spiel Musk is promoting.
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4d chess.
 
WhyLikeThis said:
Use your noggin. Putin is an ex-KGB case officer, he is a professional manipulator. What is repeatably documented is his total commitment to not allowing anyone know him or what he values. He wants decision makers and target populations to believe the spiel Musk is promoting. This will not be his true position but the message that he has calculated will give him an advantage.
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I'm not denying most of that. I'm saying that he's acting in a well-worn Russian political tradition. The one that usually dominates.

Your second sentence may be true of the Putin of old. These days he's wearing his heart on his sleeve. This too, may be calculated, but he's looked at the sources.
 
Humberto said:
He's a murderer, a liar and a thief. An appalling stain on the world. Agreed?
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Who, me? Yes, and he's not alone in either history or the contemporary world. But it makes not one iota of difference how many times somebody says it.
 
WhyLikeThis said:
Apart from its utterly transparent
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So what you're saying is that deep down Putin believes the same 'objective' version of history as you, is motivated entirely by a malice not worth discussing, and any attempt to discuss what he, and many many Russian nationalists, believe about this conflict is 'giving credence to his lies'?
 
maomao said:
So what you're saying is that deep down Putin believes the same 'objective' version of history as you, is motivated entirely by a malice not worth discussing, and any attempt to discuss what he, and many many Russian nationalists, believe about this conflict is 'giving credence to his lies'?
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No.
 
Ming said:
It seems to be going in the wrong direction.

Will Putin (at the more nihilistic age of 70) rain down nukes for the glory of mother Russia?
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I was one of those who wasn't in the least surprised that Russia invaded. It had clearly been building up for 30 years, with some lulls in between that half-suggested that the current conflict wouldn't happen...

It isn't a matter of Putin's age really, although it might be a factor (You've got me thinking now about the age at which you stop caring and become at least a bit nihilistic, or at least some people do, most of them fortunately without any real power even over their own lives...) It's more a matter of the tradition in Russian politics Putin has chosen to represent. He didn't prevously. His views appear to be, as is well-documented, a hybrid of regret for the loss of the USSR, and beyond that the old empire, and self-advancement/enrichment, surely learned from when he was a flunky for Anatoly Sobchak. Evolving from relative pragmatism into age-old 'mystical' Russian nationalism as Russia was increasingly treated as an irrelevance by a west largely acting on the geopolitical delusions of the neo-cons/ neo-liberals that governments were still in thrall to even as recognition dawned that their economic prescriptions had failed.

I suspect that facing military defeat in Ukraine (as yet far from certain, if only because nobody knows what Russia will or will not regard as victory or defeat), Russia will find a way of making Ukraine an unviable state for as long as possible. Short of using nuclear weapons. Russia will retire to lick its wounds, amidst a buildng sense of resentment among both those who backed and opposed the war. A possible, inevitably doomed, period of cod-liberalism, and then, eventually, a resurgent, yet more resentful nationalistic regime making another attempt on undermining Ukraine, with, the world and Russia being what it is, the support of many of those who quietly, if indignantly, opposed the war we are seeing now.
 
RD2003 said:
I was one of those who wasn't in the least surprised that Russia invaded. It had clearly been building up for 30 years, with some lulls in between that half-suggested that the current conflict wouldn't happen...

It isn't a matter of Putin's age really, although it might be a factor (You've got me thinking now about the age at which you stop caring and become at least a bit nihilistic, or at least some people do, most of them fortunately without any real power even over their own lives...) It's more a matter of the tradition in Russian politics Putin has chosen to represent. He didn't prevously. His views appear to be, as is well-documented, a hybrid of regret for the loss of the USSR, and beyond that the old empire, and self-advancement/enrichment, surely learned from when he was a flunky for Anatoly Sobchak. Evolving from relative pragmatism into age-old 'mystical' Russian nationalism as Russia was increasingly treated as an irrelevance by a west largely acting on the geopolitical delusions of the neo-cons/ neo-liberals that governments were still in thrall to even as recognition dawned that their economic prescriptions had failed.

I suspect that facing military defeat in Ukraine (as yet far from certain, if only because nobody knows what Russia will or will not regard as victory or defeat), Russia will find a way of making Ukraine an unviable state for as long as possible. Short of using nuclear weapons. Russia will retire to lick its wounds, amidst a buildng sense of resentment among both those who backed and opposed the war. A possible, inevitably doomed, period of cod-liberalism, and then, eventually, a resurgent, yet more resentful nationalistic regime making another attempt on undermining Ukraine, with, the world and Russia being what it is, the support of many of those who quietly, if indignantly, opposed the war we are seeing now.
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The current situation is a lot more complex than it seems certainly. I work with a few colleagues from that neck of the woods. One Czechoslovakian, a Romanian and a Serbian. They all say the ethnic mix is complex. A lot of people in that region identify as Russian. I know this sounds like justifications for war (like Germany with Czechoslovakia and Poland) but there is still some reasons.

I’m pretty sure this is the last gasp of a very unpleasant kleptocrat with empire intentions for Russia but there is some barely justifiable incentives for his terrible actions. I just hope he doesn’t start using nukes and gets defenestrated in short order. As he does to a few of his opponents.
 
RD2003 said:
Yes, we see rehearsals for the coming universal crisis all the time. Ukraine is the testing ground for how to manage war on the fringes of Europe without it affecting the centre too much. The project may be set to fail.
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yeah - cos its all planned isnt it? And Ukraine - "the fringes of europe"? Its europe's biggest country.
 
Kaka Tim said:
yeah - cos its all planned isnt it? And Ukraine - "the fringes of europe"? Its europe's biggest country.
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Do you have to plan anything for a place to become a testing ground?

What's the size of a country got to do with anything? When you go there you can tell you're far from the European mainstream in almost every way.
 
WhyLikeThis said:
Shots across the bow or just shots?
apnews.com

French police probe multiple cuts of major internet cables

French police say they’re investigating multiple cuts to fiber-optic cables in France’s second-largest city.
apnews.com apnews.com
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It could be standard operating problems. We had an internet cable company come through to install fiber optic and the underground services were so poorly mapped (or they just didn't care), that they destroyed the sewer pipe for the entire block, cut into the waterline, flooded the back alley, and cut their own fiber optic line once it was installed. They did this repeatedly all over the city.
 
Rimbaud said:
Something similar happened in Shetland Islands. I did wonder if that might be a Russian way of quietly escalating things and sowing confusion.... would be interesting if it turns out to be a pattern.
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…and Norwegian undersea submarine detection infrastructure.

www.thedrive.com

Norwegian Undersea Surveillance Network Had Its Cables Mysteriously Cut

The ocean observatory off the coast of northern Norway can detect submarine traffic and has been offline since April.
www.thedrive.com www.thedrive.com
 
Yuwipi Woman said:
It could be standard operating problems. We had an internet cable company come through to install fiber optic and the underground services were so poorly mapped (or they just didn't care), that they destroyed the sewer pipe for the entire block, cut into the waterline, flooded the back alley, and cut their own fiber optic line once it was installed. They did this repeatedly all over the city.
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Never underestimate the ability of people to fuck up! :D
 
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