Workers Power Expulsions
- Thread starter Fisher_Gate
- Start date
cockneyrebel
New Member
Sorry cheers for telling me, honestly wasn't a dig, was just curious.
So you in any group?
fanciful makes a good point about China and have to say that our statement is very measured compared to their rant.
I did hear it got pretty heated on the revo board, especially from Josh who started saying peoples breath stunk because of all the shit they came out with. I am glad their politics are going from nuanced strength to strength!
So you in any group?
fanciful makes a good point about China and have to say that our statement is very measured compared to their rant.
I did hear it got pretty heated on the revo board, especially from Josh who started saying peoples breath stunk because of all the shit they came out with. I am glad their politics are going from nuanced strength to strength!
Udo Erasmus
Well-Known Member
On the subject of the minority faction opposing the Social forum experiment, it surprises me that Cardiff comrades are in this faction then. WP in Cardiff were absolutely obsessed with setting up a local social forum, to the extent of continually trying to liquidate the local StWC group into it, and getting people elected onto the local StWC committee to (their own words) "bind the two organisations closely together"
Squatticus
for an armed populace
Udo Erasmus said:
Yes Udo, its called democratic centralism (er, aren't you in SWP?). As in Cardiff, so in Manchester: we carried out the agreed group tasks as loyally as possible and did our best in the circumstances.
yes in fact during the anti-war movement we were the only ones who actually did anything about establishing social forum type bodies. In Manchester for example we also promoted the Peoples Assembly, alongside many others, the point was that it pretty quickly became clear after the decline of the STWC that these social forums were terrible rumps.
The minority said that we should recognise the facts and pull out of them, the majority said (in spite of not doing much about it) we had to continue to plug them ad infinitum, never mind what they were really like.
It's all evidence of their schematism, they want to impose "key" slogans on the class struggle from the outside.
And hence they exaggerate everything, overstate the significance of every fight back, while actually doing very little.
And the social forums are no exception.
The minority said that we should recognise the facts and pull out of them, the majority said (in spite of not doing much about it) we had to continue to plug them ad infinitum, never mind what they were really like.
It's all evidence of their schematism, they want to impose "key" slogans on the class struggle from the outside.
And hence they exaggerate everything, overstate the significance of every fight back, while actually doing very little.
And the social forums are no exception.
Udo Erasmus
Well-Known Member
fanciful said:
the Cardiff comrades continually argued that their social forum was the best thing since sliced bread and a roaring success and expressed their indignation that the SWP showed little interest in getting involved - for the very reason that the Minority faction statement says, that we didn't think their was much momentum for it or focus.
One leading WP comrade at one point envisioned the local Social Forum as being the possible basis for a Soviet and I recall criticised me for arguing the very perspective he has now put his name to a statement arguing.
Personally, I thought this (social forum) organisation could have been useful as a lose network of activists on its own terms without the grandiose stuff from WP, but WP were obsessive about them and believed that every political campaign should take place under the social forum banner
Udo Erasmus
Well-Known Member
fanciful said:
But the WP I'm talking about are part of your faction! And have argued many of the politics which they now say they oppose, which is why I'm confused.
Squatticus
for an armed populace
Udo Erasmus said:
See post #95.
Well its also true to say that comrades from the faction also made mistakes around assessing the potential of the social forum movement. There's no point in us pretending that we had all of the answers at the outset of the struggle against the majority of workers power. We have learnt from experience too. What became clear however, was that the majority not only refused to admit their mistakes, but made a virtue of their refusal.
That's why what are on the surface differences of estimation of the world period and tactics lead to a split.
That's why what are on the surface differences of estimation of the world period and tactics lead to a split.
cockneyrebel
New Member
Udo don't the SWP have democratic centralism? Seeing you've been in the SWP for so many years I can't believe you're even asking this.
I set up a CNWP meeting in my workplace despite my big doubts about the whole thing. So what? That was the line of the organisation.
I set up a CNWP meeting in my workplace despite my big doubts about the whole thing. So what? That was the line of the organisation.
cockneyrebel
New Member
No worries at all, I can understand it cos a lot of people on the left are way too suspicious of people!
Divisive Cotton said:
Apparently, as its key leaders still hanker for the daftest trot theory ever -moribund workers states - the minority faction will call itself Moribund Workers Power.
the majority is expected to respond by calling itself Degenerate Workers Power.
Certainly, a neat way of distinguishing between the two groups.
First England get put out of the world cup in the best pantomime fashion.
Now Cockers gets exposed as a petty bourgeois dilletante and expelled.
While the two incidents are obvious signs of the boundless goodness of the flying spaghetti monster, I just wish he'd space them out a bit more. There's only so much sniggering that I can manage.
Now Cockers gets exposed as a petty bourgeois dilletante and expelled.
While the two incidents are obvious signs of the boundless goodness of the flying spaghetti monster, I just wish he'd space them out a bit more. There's only so much sniggering that I can manage.
rebel warrior
Soca Warrior
The long awaited statement from the League for the Sixth International
A cut and paste job I'm afraid. I wonder how long this lot will keep going inside the WPB before they too get expelled? :
A cut and paste job I'm afraid. I wonder how long this lot will keep going inside the WPB before they too get expelled? :
neprimerimye
Well-Known Member
Fisher_Gate said:A 16 page 'Workers Power Split' Special Part 1, Part 2 to follow the next week, with exclusive interviews with the protagonists, a thirty year history of everything WP have ever done, and 'a plague on both their houses' editorial, I hope! They'll get so excited you'll need to wear gloves to read it lest your fingers get sticky.
They would have to sub-contract it.
looks like the sheffield, birmingham and cardiff branches are expelled, along with most of the manchester branch and about half the london branch of WP - leaving workers power with groups in london, leeds, leicester, newcastle and manchester plus a few others dotted around the country.
i know people on both sides (though haven't spoken to them) and i'm not surprised by the split, though I wonder how on earth workers power is going to fund itself with most of its wage-earning members expelled?
i'm going to reserve judgement for a while on the politics of it until i've spoken to people i think.
btw the revo webboards have been hacked, according to the revo egroup. no news on when they'll be back up...
i know people on both sides (though haven't spoken to them) and i'm not surprised by the split, though I wonder how on earth workers power is going to fund itself with most of its wage-earning members expelled?
i'm going to reserve judgement for a while on the politics of it until i've spoken to people i think.
btw the revo webboards have been hacked, according to the revo egroup. no news on when they'll be back up...
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
Is this real? Are there people around who really believe this, or is it something run by students who've blagged an Arts Council grant?
urbanrevolt
New Member
Udo asks about the Cardiff branch: "But the WP I'm talking about are part of your faction! And have argued many of the politics which they now say they oppose, which is why I'm confused."
|Squatticus is right about dc and we did help build a successfule People's Assembly in Manchester. However it is true that there was an especial anthusiasm in Cardiff for longwer which went beyond loyalty. A couple of Cardiff comrades were really into the social forum thing and it was the expereince of setting up a successful social forum and then iys filure to do what the group's exaggereated perspectives predicted that brought them to the point of view we now all have in the faction/ PR/ whatever we're going to be called. This because we're materialists- when you keep banging your head against a reality that is in stark contradiction to your ideas eventually your ideas change or you go mad.
fanciful says yawn to junior rebel's pss take but it's not too inaccurate a caricuture of the rump WP's position actually though caricatures never really get us anywhere.
On sf's we objected to the ridiculous idea that building them was a key slogan and absolute necessity. As discussion circles with activists and may be organised trade unions drawn into action then why not if it works in the particular circumstances but not a religious adherence to them.
But if it becomes merely a talking shop then leave it.
As for proto- soviet well it does seem laughable except in the boradest sense we can begin organising netqorks of militants now e.g in cross union committees also with delegates from tenants' groups, youth, unemployed whatever who organise action and these may be will become important in a time of mass uprisings and action when it'll be too late to assemble all the forces needed but we shouldn't be grandiose or dogmatic about how we do it.
It is this grandiosity and dogmatism that we have left behind in my opinion.
|Squatticus is right about dc and we did help build a successfule People's Assembly in Manchester. However it is true that there was an especial anthusiasm in Cardiff for longwer which went beyond loyalty. A couple of Cardiff comrades were really into the social forum thing and it was the expereince of setting up a successful social forum and then iys filure to do what the group's exaggereated perspectives predicted that brought them to the point of view we now all have in the faction/ PR/ whatever we're going to be called. This because we're materialists- when you keep banging your head against a reality that is in stark contradiction to your ideas eventually your ideas change or you go mad.
fanciful says yawn to junior rebel's pss take but it's not too inaccurate a caricuture of the rump WP's position actually though caricatures never really get us anywhere.
On sf's we objected to the ridiculous idea that building them was a key slogan and absolute necessity. As discussion circles with activists and may be organised trade unions drawn into action then why not if it works in the particular circumstances but not a religious adherence to them.
But if it becomes merely a talking shop then leave it.
As for proto- soviet well it does seem laughable except in the boradest sense we can begin organising netqorks of militants now e.g in cross union committees also with delegates from tenants' groups, youth, unemployed whatever who organise action and these may be will become important in a time of mass uprisings and action when it'll be too late to assemble all the forces needed but we shouldn't be grandiose or dogmatic about how we do it.
It is this grandiosity and dogmatism that we have left behind in my opinion.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
Udo Erasmus said:
Imagine that! It's almost as bad as the leading members of a somewhat bigger sect arguing that the StWC People's Assembly carried in it the seeds of dual power!
cockneyrebel
New Member
Hello Mr T!
Read through the statements and see what you think and give people a call on the phone.
In terms of the Revo boards, it might well not be anything "sinister", it just be down (which has happened before) and it's a coincidence.
I have to say that having read through both statements it's a bit ironic that the majority accussed us of Abernism and using smoke screens to hide the political debate. While the statement of the expelled members is about the politics and a sane read the WP statement is like a mad stalinist rant. I mean who the fuck is gonna be interested in the fact that some people stopped paying subs!!! It goes into organisational questions in minute details.....
All in all this is very sad for the people involved, but best for both sides I think.
Squatticus
for an armed populace
Ouch!
Did you see this in the last paragraph of the 1st June statement on the WP website?
"Now we will certainly have to prioritise even more ruthlessly the use of our resources and make bigger sacrifices."
Up from two nights a week and one stall a weekend or you're out... LOL at Leeds!
Did you see this in the last paragraph of the 1st June statement on the WP website?
"Now we will certainly have to prioritise even more ruthlessly the use of our resources and make bigger sacrifices."
Up from two nights a week and one stall a weekend or you're out... LOL at Leeds!
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