Woolwich soldier killed (was "Did cops just shoot 2 dead in woolwich?")

[Casually Red]

Raises some interesting points esp. the majority of Irish people didn't get involved with republicanism, and the "supranational Irish identity" replace that with " the supra fervent Muslim convert" perhaps.
One thing is striking, the absence of religion in the article.

thats because it didnt play any significant role in republicanism , despite the fact that some were very devout catholics . If anything the religious beliefs held by some of the republicans would have been a moderating factor in many of their actions .

I posted it because Im more open to the view that what motivates these guys to carry out acts of terror in Britian is to a large degree their abandonment or rejection of a British national identity and an identification instead with the wider muslim ummah as a nationality of sorts . That they see muslims being killed in much the same way you would see British people being killed . I think thats where the desire to carry out violent acts in Britian really originates, and that the religious extremism is merely an ideology that reinforces that desire to do something drastic, or gives it an ideological shape and form . Im not really convinced that the religious extremism itself is the cause . I think a lot of these guys gravitate towards it or go deeper into it because its the only place that justifies what they already feel like doing . Bottom line I dont think its primarily the religious extremism which is at the root of their non identification with British society and their desire to use violence against it. I think theres a range of other factors at play , but Im really not knowlegable enough to hold forth on what all the dynamics are .

 

[Casually Red]

They didn't need to, taking their war to the mainland did the job, if it hadn't who knows what they would have done. It is clear that many in the IRA were prepared to die for the cause, so suicide bombings could have been the next step.

I dont think so . Communities and families wouldnt have tolerated it and that was the IRAs bedrock . It wasnt in the mindset of where they drew their support from and without that they would have been fucked.

 

[IC3D]

im going back a good while here , pre 9 11 but i remember quite a number of reports of London being the favoured destination of a lot of the more radical salafist clerics . At the same time France took a back seat as regards Iraq, cheese eating surrender monkeys and all that . France was the target of some serious islamist bombings pre 911 , but not much after it .
What Blair did was put Britian at the forefront of this war on terror, which they translate as a war on muslims, and theres been no admission of doing anything wrong bar a few minor mistakes and no real stepping back from that whole warlike ideology of conquest . Ive certainly noticed even from this vantage point what looks like a ramping up of the militarism in Britian ever since then, an increase in the poppy fascism, the help for heroes stuff, the Cowell aid, Harry in his fucking apache of death . Those are like war drums to some people, and a red rag to others . Britian just seems to be in constant war mode and thats an atmosphere that very easily in my view reinforces the war mode of the jihadists . Its all around them and reinforces everything theyre saying about war and conflict and crusaders.

There is no war footing other than on the TV, I assure you London is rammed to the gills with people oblivious to it if there is. There aren't many Jihadists and those that are probably after being snitched on by Chaudry or someone else don't get very far, the stabbing in Woolwich is one of many happening every week. Personally I felt more on a war footing when they tested the nuke early warning sirens and heard a couple of IRA bombs in the 80's

 

[1%er]

I dont think so . Communities and families wouldnt have tolerated it and that was the IRAs bedrock . It wasnt in the mindset of where they drew their support from and without that they would have been fucked.

Maybe I'm misremembering, I'm sure it was in a book written by an IRA member where he claimed "suicide attacks were discussed at the highest level", maybe they were discussed and rejected. I can't remember it was a long time ago.

 

[alsoknownas]

Watching the 'orrible video (from above) of the shooting, it seems to me as though the police got a bit blindsided. The first attacker rushes towards them (but discards his knife) - the second guy falls back and seems to be aiming his gun at them for a fews seconds.
But the armed police (the ones we can see), seem to be only focussed on the forward rushing guy.
Did they plan it that way? One rushes forward as a decoy, while the other one shoots?
According to an eyewitness (twitter bloke) the gun misfired. I reckon (just from looking at that video) the police may have been a bit lucky there. ???

 

[SpineyNorman]

Interesting posts Casually Red - don't know if I agree cos I don't really know enough about it but interesting nonetheless.

 

[Spymaster]

Watching the 'orrible video (from above) of the shooting, it seems to me as though the police got a bit blindsided. The first attacker rushes towards them (but discards his knife) - the second guy falls back and seems to be aiming his gun at them for a fews seconds.
But the armed police (the ones we can see), seem to be only focussed on the forward rushing guy.
Did they plan it that way? One rushes forward as a decoy, while the other one shoots?
According to an eyewitness (twitter bloke) the gun misfired. I reckon (just from looking at that video) the police may have been a bit lucky there. ???

Who do you shoot first, the bloke with the gun or the bloke charging you with a knife?

I think the cops did pretty well. The car had only just turned up and all of a sudden there's a bloke who's already lopped of some geezers head charging at you with a knife. Given the circumstances and the fact that the shooter had about 3 seconds to react I think he's played a blinder.

 

[sihhi]

UAF Statement from today:

Handing in of UAF unity statement to Downing St prior to EDL mobilisation
Monday 27 May 2pm outside Downing Street London SW1A

Unite Against Fascism sends its condolences to the family and friends of Lee Rigby, the soldier murdered on Wednesday in Woolwich. There can be no justification for such a terrible attack on an individual.
At the same time we also reject the attempt by fascist organisations such as the English Defence League and British National Party to exploit the murder to whip up racism and direct hatred towards all Muslims. Last night a mosque in Bletchley was subjected to an arson attack with petrol bomb.

Together with all anti-racists, those of different communities, cultures and faiths, trade unions and others we, now more than ever, must stand up to Islamophobia wherever it raises its head.
Join us outside Downing Street on Monday to hand in our statement following the Woolwich murder. We will be co-ordinating a peaceful assembly prior to the EDL mobilisation at 3pm. Our event will include trade unionists, faith representatives, community groups and others.

Any incidents linked to Friday prayers?

 

[goldenecitrone]

Any incidents linked to Friday prayers?

Doubt it. Bunch of gobshites, aren't they?

 

[SpineyNorman]

Who do you shoot first, the bloke with the gun or the bloke charging you with a knife?

I think the cops did pretty well. The car had only just turned up and all of a sudden there's a bloke who's already lopped of some geezers head charging at you with a knife. Given the circumstances and the fact that the shooter had about 3 seconds to react I think he's played a blinder.

Yeah I definitely agree with that - I'm certainly no fan of the police but I really can't see what else those particular coppers could have done - if they wanted to stay in one piece anyway.

 

[Casually Red]

Watching the 'orrible video (from above) of the shooting, it seems to me as though the police got a bit blindsided. The first attacker rushes towards them (but discards his knife) - the second guy falls back and seems to be aiming his gun at them for a fews seconds.
But the armed police (the ones we can see), seem to be only focussed on the forward rushing guy.
Did they plan it that way? One rushes forward as a decoy, while the other one shoots?
According to an eyewitness (twitter bloke) the gun misfired. I reckon (just from looking at that video) the police may have been a bit lucky there. ???

one things thats struck me throughout this entire thing, apart from the horrific savagery, is these guys despite their lack of materiel really seemed to have had a plan and stuck to it . They..or maybe someone else..seem to have anticipated and planned in detail for the follow up , cops, media..everything . The only thing that seems to have gone wrong is a possible misfire and the non lethal injuries they took. Beleiving in martyrdom is one thing but to commit such an horrific act and then just sit and wait in front of all those people and keep your head and stick to the plan . Thats nothing like those losers who lost all their money on foreign exchanges and almost starved in somelittle camp and had to ring mummy and daddy toget them home .
Thats way more serious . If thats a taste of things to come its quite sobering .

 

[sptme]

Reprisal attack in East London
http://www.newhamrecorder.co.uk/new..._run_by_muslim_family_in_upton_park_1_2209782

A Muslim family are in shock after their fried chicken shop was viciously attacked last night by vengeful thugs following the murder of a soldier in Woolwich.
Two men entered Dixy Chicken on Green Street, Upton Park at 9.30pm where staff claim they banged on the serving counter, shouting, “You killed one of our soldiers, we’ll kill you” before vandalising the shop.

Luckily its doesn't seem like anyone was seriously hurt.

 

[SpineyNorman]

UAF Statement from today:




Any incidents linked to Friday prayers?

Not related to Friday prayers but SWP types are sharing this (Muslim run takeaway attacked in what the article says is a revenge attack by the far right) on facebook.

I've got a few SWP and UAF types on my facebook and if it happened I'm sure they'll have posted something - when I get 5 minutes I'll have a proper look.

E2A: Same link sptme just posted above, must have been about half a second before me!

 

[butchersapron]

It's not a taste of thing to come - it's a taste of their defeat. Forced into mad acts like that cut the ground out from under them. Not a new stage but defeat on an old stage.

 

[alsoknownas]

Who do you shoot first, the bloke with the gun or the bloke charging you with a knife?

I think the cops did pretty well. The car had only just turned up and all of a sudden there's a bloke who's already lopped of some geezers head charging at you with a knife. Given the circumstances and the fact that the shooter had about 3 seconds to react I think he's played a blinder.

It was a she I think (again I'm just going on what twitter blokey said).
I reckon you're supposed to split your fire and cover one another (but how would I really know?).

 

[SpineyNorman]

UAF Statement from today:




Any incidents linked to Friday prayers?

Don't know if it's been posted already but this appears to be the arson attack they're talking about.

I've had a bit of a look around and can't see anything around Friday prayers.

 

[butchersapron]

It was a she I think (again I'm just going on what twitter blokey said).
I reckon you're supposed to split your fire and cover one another (but how would I really know?).

No, the other bloke in the car fired. The WPC was the one under threat.

 

[JHE]

Watching the 'orrible video (from above) of the shooting, it seems to me as though the police got a bit blindsided. The first attacker rushes towards them (but discards his knife) - the second guy falls back and seems to be aiming his gun at them for a fews seconds.
But the armed police (the ones we can see), seem to be only focussed on the forward rushing guy.
Did they plan it that way? One rushes forward as a decoy, while the other one shoots?
According to an eyewitness (twitter bloke) the gun misfired. I reckon (just from looking at that video) the police may have been a bit lucky there. ???

Assuming it is true that one of the Allah-sodden gentlemen had a gun, tried to use it and it misfired, yes, Plod was more than a bit lucky!

 

[alsoknownas]

...
Thats way more serious . If thats a taste of things to come its quite sobering .

I have to agree. I actually thought the main guy (machete guy), was scarily articulate compared to the usual loons (obviously spouting utter crap, but in a coherent and consistent manner is what I mean ).

 

[Casually Red]

I have to agree. I actually thought the main guy (machete guy), was scarily articulate compared to the usual loons (obviously spouting utter crap, but in a coherent and consistent manner is what I mean ).

yup, pretty much shocked me . Even Boyadee was gobsmacked, and hes seen it all before . Twice .

 

[alsoknownas]

No, the other bloke in the car fired. The WPC was the one under threat.

His tweets have been deleted, but twitter bloke (from earlier in this thread) clearly stated that the WPC was the one who fired (no idea how reliable his testimony is, but he got very excited about it and went into quite a bit of detail).

 

[butchersapron]

His tweets have been deleted, but twitter bloke (from earlier in this thread) clearly stated that the WPC was the one who fired (no idea how reliable his testimony is, but he got very excited about it and went into quite a bit of detail).

The police say the opposite.

 

[alsoknownas]

yup, pretty much shocked me . Even Boyadee was gobsmacked, and hes seen it all before . Twice .

That's the chap - Boyadee - my main news source these days.

 

[alsoknownas]

The police say the opposite.

 

[butchersapron]

No other accounts say the wpc fired - apart from this deleted one.

 

[IC3D]

On Newsnight atm his mate is saying the knifeman was radicalised after being sexually assaulted in Kenya by the OB also being harassed by M15 in London

 

[agricola]

The police say the opposite.

Not sure that they have, tbh. Quite a few of the reports mention that it was a female PC who shot at least one of these blokes.

 

[Casually Red]

That's the chap - Boyadee - my main news source these days.

hes the newshound Trevor McDonald wanted to be, but hadnt the nerve

 

[alsoknownas]

No other accounts say the wpc fired - apart from this deleted one.

Well it could all be bullshit, I've no idea. What about the misfire, has that been reported? My man Boyz said that it blew the assailants finger off. (I hope someone has preserved those tweets)

 

[JHE]

I have to agree. I actually thought the main guy (machete guy), was scarily articulate compared to the usual loons (obviously spouting utter crap, but in a coherent and consistent manner is what I mean ).

All the Islamonuts whose statements we've heard, in their video wotsits, have been equally clear (or "articulate", if you prefer). The views they express and the clarity with which they express them are not rare. They differ from most of their thinkalikes in having the courage of their convictions.