Woolwich soldier killed (was "Did cops just shoot 2 dead in woolwich?")

[coley]

Sort your formating out mate - can't tell what's been quoted and what you've said yourself.

But if you're saying what I think you're saying then I doubt it would get much worse - and 'we' are going to have to leave at some point. If we follow your logic then 'we' can never end the occupation, which will lead to constant escalation of terrorist attacks.

We are out of Iraq,we have largely ceased combat ops in Afghanistan, what were these two fanatics on about,when going on about us "leaving their lands"?

 

[Sasaferrato]

Has sass just posted a bomb making recipe and given clues as to the trade names of the necessary ingredients?

Yes. As could anyone who has handled explosives as part of their job.

 

[sihhi]

Worldwide, radical Islam is on the ascendancy. Look at the situation in Syria, and also in Iraq.

No, it's not, neoliberal soft Islamism is, as in Iraq, Turkey, Indonesia, Egypt, Tunisia and Libya. Syria is in a state of massive flux and confusion and absolute ascendancy of 'radical Islam' is a fact only if you're Mystic Meg.

 

[SpineyNorman]

We are out of Iraq,we have largely ceased combat ops in Afghanistan, what were these two fanatics on about,when going on about us "leaving their lands"?

'We' still have troops on the ground in those countries and more. Including peacekeeping (lol). And in foreign policy terms 'we're' now associated with whatever the US is doing so you can add in drone attacks etc. Pulling out and publicly disassociating 'ourselves' from what the yanks are doing might be a good start.

 

[coley]

i dont live in england, i dont have a handle on the dynamics of all the aspects of its society . I know next to fuck all about its leftist groups and often give even less of fuck although I wish all progressives well. I dont even come from an industrialised or post industrial society. You know this very well . All that theory is of no use to me so I dont waste my time obsessing with it . Learning chinese would be more use.
What I do have a bit of a handle on though is the cause and effect of various reactions to armed imperialism, about the raw emotions that evokes among those who for one reason or another identify strongly with its victims . And how that anger and frustration and desire to hit back can send very ordinary non violent people down paths were all sorts of things become possible . Because thats the stuff that happened in my society and I can see similar things happening now .

So when I see things I recognise I point to elements of cause and effect and try and analyse and discuss that as opposed to the entire dynamics of a society I dont live in, often dont understand to a degree I could start pontificating to others on and which frankly are of little use to me as I dont live there . But which nonthless interest me so Ill add my two cents worth if thats alright to you .

Which you know . But it would be an absolute catastrophe if, god forbid, you missed an opportunity to sound clever . Preferably with added crypticism, as an affectation .

And yet in the last thirty years the IRA never went in for suicide bombings ( at least not intentionally) where do you think the difference lies?

 

[SpineyNorman]

Yes. As could anyone who has handled explosives as part of their job.

Most of them don't post it on urban though

 

[Sasaferrato]

all spittled out?

You flatter yourself, if you consider yourself worthy of my spittle.

 

[Sasaferrato]

And yet in the last thirty years the IRA never went in for suicide bombings ( at least not intentionally) where do you think the difference lies?

They were mad but not stupid?

 

[framed]

Has sass just posted a bomb making recipe and given clues as to the trade names of the necessary ingredients?

And is he aware of the offence of possessing information useful to a terrorist?

...that was rather sporting of him.

 

[cantsin]

We are out of Iraq,we have largely ceased combat ops in Afghanistan, what were these two fanatics on about,when going on about us "leaving their lands"?

um, so if we were still there, in full ....???

 

[coley]

'We' still have troops on the ground in those countries and more. Including peacekeeping (lol). And in foreign policy terms 'we're' now associated with whatever the US is doing so you can add in drone attacks etc. Pulling out and publicly disassociating 'ourselves' from what the yanks are doing might be a good start.

Aye and if these two in Woolwich and the tube bombers had been from Iraq, Afghanistan I could have been halfway there to understanding their actions, it's trying to get a handle on home grown radicalisation which bothers me.

 

[Casually Red]

Worldwide, radical Islam is on the ascendancy. Look at the situation in Syria, and also in Iraq. The government of Pakistan; leaving aside the fact that their intelligence services leak like a sieve; does not have control of the North of the country, and haven't had since the inception of the nation. The might of the British Empire didn't either.

Every middle eastern country that has fragmented is spawning yet another radical Islamist group. Al Queda, despite its decapitation appears to thrive.

I thought to myself earlier, with absolute power,and no conscience, what would I do to rid Britain of this. I cannot think of a single solution that would have a chance of working, no matter how brutal. The answer I feel, will come from within the Muslim community. When we get to the point, where that community feel more affinity for Britain than for the Muslim faith and their 'parent' country, the situation will change.

the muslim community leaders and the majority of them can condemn extremism till they are blue in the face . But everytime a western missile or bomb falls on a pakistani, afghan or arab village then youll have muslims in Britian and elsewhere who wont be paying much heed to the advice of those calling for muslims to accept the western priciples of non violence , respect for the innocent, peace and tolerance . Because thats not the example the mainstream western society is setting to them .

Your own country sent a task force to the other end of the globe over a couple of lumps of rock and a few hundred inbreds because your flag was pulled down . Why youd expect other people to look at the world any differently will always be a mystery to me .

 

[butchersapron]

i dont live in england, i dont have a handle on the dynamics of all the aspects of its society . I know next to fuck all about its leftist groups and often give even less of fuck although I wish all progressives well. I dont even come from an industrialised or post industrial society. You know this very well . All that theory is of no use to me so I dont waste my time obsessing with it . Learning chinese would be more use.
What I do have a bit of a handle on though is the cause and effect of various reactions to armed imperialism, about the raw emotions that evokes among those who for one reason or another identify strongly with its victims . And how that anger and frustration and desire to hit back can send very ordinary non violent people down paths were all sorts of things become possible . Because thats the stuff that happened in my society and I can see similar things happening now .

So when I see things I recognise I point to elements of cause and effect and try and analyse and discuss that as opposed to the entire dynamics of a society I dont live in, often dont understand to a degree I could start pontificating to others on and which frankly are of little use to me as I dont live there . But which nonthless interest me so Ill add my two cents worth if thats alright to you .

Which you know . But it would be an absolute catastrophe if, god forbid, you missed an opportunity to sound clever . Preferably with added crypticism, as an affectation .

All that is fair enough , no probs at all (disagreements aside) it says that what you posted earlier was a response to events that you had seen mirrored elsewhere, these events being seen only through the lens of British state (foreign) policy and how they effected communities that you know. No problems so far, it's a sensible political argument. But why the closure at that point? That's why i brought up the rest of it. To be political you need the whole of it - not to see or insist on the whole leads you to dead end politics that can only and will only see british foreign policy as sole drivers. Which is to miss at least half of what happened here - which was what you were trying to answer.

 

[Casually Red]

Aye and if these two in Woolwich and the tube bombers had been from Iraq, Afghanistan I could have been halfway there to understanding their actions, it's trying to get a handle on home grown radicalisation which bothers me.

put this on another thread but it might be relevant to an extent

http://www.fortnight.org/oruairc429.html

 

[coley]

um, so if we were still there, in full ....???

Aye, so if we were to withdraw tomorrow it wouldn't make a happerthworth of difference, the people doing the radicalisation will just need to point to our history to generate justification?

 

[Spymaster]

Your own country sent a task force to the other end of the globe over a couple of lumps of rock ....

Quite right too.

 

[felixthecat]

Has sass just posted a bomb making recipe and given clues as to the trade names of the necessary ingredients?

Thought everyone knew this after Oklahoma City! Most country dwellers also know it - farmers use the same for blowing tree stumps out of field so they don't get in the way of the machinery.

Its no big secret.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

CR, I agree with a lot of what you say, but the one thing that regularly annoys me about your posts is your habit of saying 'you' as in 'you Brits', and 'your'. That's fine when you're talking about moaning about the weather or being ironic too much or that kind of thing, but it doesn't work when you're talking about politics.

 

[Casually Red]

All that is fair enough , no probs at all (disagreements aside) it says that what you posted earlier was a response to events that you had seen mirrored elsewhere, these events being seen only through the lens of British state (foreign) policy and how they effected communities that you know. No problems so far, it's a sensible political argument. But why the closure at that point? That's why i brought up the rest of it. To be political you need the whole of it - not to see or insist on the whole leads you to dead end politics that can only and will only see british foreign policy as drivers. Which is to miss at least half of what happened here - which was what you were trying to answer.

i dont engage in closure, when it comes to stuff im not knowlegable enough on I take the sensible option and shut my mouth and listen to what others say and analyse that instead of coming out with some half baked solution i dont properly understand.

Its one of the reasons I visit this site, to try and understand better the political and social dynamics at work in Britain . That and the craic .

 

[butchersapron]

CR, I agree with a lot of what you say, but the one thing that regularly annoys me about your posts is your habit of saying 'you' as in 'you Brits', and 'your'. That's fine when you're talking about moaning about the weather or being ironic too much or that kind of thing, but it doesn't work when you're talking about politics.

It fits entirely with his politics.To change it would would be dilute it so liberals can pretend they are in the nice IRA.

 

[1%er]

Worldwide, radical Islam is on the ascendancy. Look at the situation in Syria, and also in Iraq. The government of Pakistan; leaving aside the fact that their intelligence services leak like a sieve; does not have control of the North of the country, and haven't had since the inception of the nation. The might of the British Empire didn't either.

Every middle eastern country that has fragmented is spawning yet another radical Islamist group. Al Queda, despite its decapitation appears to thrive.

I thought to myself earlier, with absolute power,and no conscience, what would I do to rid Britain of this. I cannot think of a single solution that would have a chance of working, no matter how brutal. The answer I feel, will come from within the Muslim community. When we get to the point, where that community feel more affinity for Britain than for the Muslim faith and their 'parent' country, the situation will change.

If you are looking at it from a "rid Britain" view, you will not find an answer. There is a global war on terrorism and Britain is part of that war. This killing has brought the war onto the streets of the UK in a very brutal fashion, the people who planned this action have achieved what they wanted, they have raised the issue to the top of the agenda across the world, not only with media coverage but also political coverage.

The IRA did the same when they took their war to the mainland UK and forced it to the top of the agenda, there is now peace in N.I I believe.

 

[Frances Lengel]

all spittled out?

It's not as if you've made a single constructive post. And it seems like every time I look at the cycle commute thread, you're always falling off your bike - What's going on with that?

You're utterly preposterous, man.

 

[Casually Red]

CR, I agree with a lot of what you say, but the one thing that regularly annoys me about your posts is your habit of saying 'you' as in 'you Brits', and 'your'. That's fine when you're talking about moaning about the weather or being ironic too much or that kind of thing, but it doesn't work when you're talking about politics.

fair enough, i understand that and i do try not to . But youll notice that I usually do that in response to someone who says we . But ill check my privilege a bit more carefully in future .

 

[butchersapron]

i dont engage in closure, when it comes to stuff im not knowlegable enough on I take the sensible option and shut my mouth and listen to what others say and analyse that instead of coming out with some half baked solution i dont properly understand.

Its one of the reasons I visit this site, to try and understand better the political and social dynamics at work in Britain . That and the craic .

Right so we're on the same page, you wasn't closing it off there and the stuff i posted can/should be added to yours?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

But ill check my privilege a bit more carefully in future .

 

[Sasaferrato]

Aye, so if we were to withdraw tomorrow it wouldn't make a happerthworth of difference, the people doing the radicalisation will just need to point to our history to generate justification?

Yep. That was the point I was making to Spiny, which he didn't get. The timeline goes back twenty, or more, years. As regards radicalisation, the moment Richard the Lionheart got on his horse...

 

[Sasaferrato]

Thought everyone knew this after Oklahoma City! Most country dwellers also know it - farmers use the same for blowing tree stumps out of field so they don't get in the way of the machinery.

Its no big secret.

The IRA were extensive users also.

 

[ddraig]

It's not as if you've made a single constructive post. And it seems like every time I look at the cycle commute thread, you're always falling off your bike - What's going on with that?

You're utterly preposterous, man.

no no

 

[laptop]

the nice IRA.

How did I miss this split?

 

[butchersapron]

It's not as if you've made a single constructive post. And it seems like every time I look at the cycle commute thread, you're always falling off your bike - What's going on with that?

You're utterly preposterous, man.

The english made him fall off his bike once by playing one of the best tests ever in cardiff. Really.