Woolwich soldier killed (was "Did cops just shoot 2 dead in woolwich?")

[Spymaster]

I've never been one to take advise of others. Will let you know how tonite pans out

Don't forget to slip the tongue in.

 

[SpineyNorman]

They are cowards. Two to one, run your victim over, then attack an unarmed man with bladed weapons. Vile cowardice.

Personally, when they are well again, they should be given to then RRF to 'play' with. Let them feel what the poor bastard they murdered felt like.

Cowardly, murdering scum.

Which would, of course, be brave as fuck and not at all cowardly.

Does it really matter whether they were brave or cowardly? Either way they're brutal, murdering scumbags.

 

[Casually Red]

I've never been one to take advise of others. Will let you know how tonite pans out

ill keep an eye on the news

 

[SpineyNorman]

In which case, should we not be carrying their battle back to them? We have the capacity to render any country's capital to a glowing ruin.

You really are a vile cunt aren't you? I know, let's show the terrorists how much better we are than them - by being even bigger indescriminate mass murdering nutjobs than they are. That'll work. And definitely wouldn't result in reprisals - not at all!

 

[Sasaferrato]

For pity's sake, Sas. . .

I was being ironic, or perhaps sarcastic. The fallout would land on us, so I'm not advocating nuclear war.

 

[laptop]

Which would, of course, be brave as fuck and not at all cowardly.

Does it really matter whether they were brave or cowardly? Either way they're brutal, murdering scumbags.

The amount of effort that always goes into persuading us that such attackers were cowardly suggests that some people - not least newspaper leader writers - think it matters.

 

[coley]

Do you not?[/

As right as you are that this was a vile act, you can't fight violence with violence, it will just breed more of the same. And it saddens me that people can't see it. The EDL and their response, is going to victimise good honest Muslim people, folk who are just as horrified as everyone else at what has happened, prehaps even more horrified as it was done "in the name" of their religion. An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. The hatred and the killing has to stop somewhere man.

Thats exactly what they wanted but it didn't happen after the tube bombings and luckily it doesn't seem to be happening now, and the RRF wouldn't hack their heads off in revenge, not our way.

 

[SpineyNorman]

The amount of effort that always goes into persuading us that such attackers were cowardly suggests that some people - not least newspaper leader writers - think it matters.

The newspaper writers also appear to think David Beckham's haircut is important though.

 

[Sasaferrato]

As right as you are that this was a vile act, you can't fight violence with violence, it will just breed more of the same. And it saddens me that people can't see it. The EDL and their response, is going to victimise good honest Muslim people, folk who are just as horrified as everyone else at what has happened, prehaps even more horrified as it was done "in the name" of their religion. An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. The hatred and the killing has to stop somewhere man.

Of course it has.

How do you persuade people who are obsessed, to the level that they will kill themselves for their 'cause' though?

The fanatics are not going to listen to reason, and although small in number, can wreak substantial havoc, as has been demonstrated on both sides of the pond.

Unless there is help from within the Muslim community, identifying and stopping these people is impossible.

There is a huge problem here, which is that a small number of people, working in isolated cells can be undetectable, until something happens. Manufacturing a car bomb is relatively simple. I would expect that to happen. (It has been tried, but due to 'technical difficulties', thankfully none has exploded.)

As I see it, the problem is insurmountable, it is something we are going to have to learn to live with.

 

[cesare]

just saw an interview with some guy on the news there who seems to have had a lucky escape . He was in the same area and was wearing combat pants and boots , his accent makes it obvious hes an immigrant , and these 2 guys followed him for a bit and then engaged him in converstaion . They were asking him questions about why he was dressed like that . Then they walked off . Lucky man by the sounds of it .

Yeah, and they talked to a couple of neighbours about that who said it sounded like "complete bollocks"

 

[Sasaferrato]

You really are a vile cunt aren't you? I know, let's show the terrorists how much better we are than them - by being even bigger indescriminate mass murdering nutjobs than they are. That'll work. And definitely wouldn't result in reprisals - not at all!

You are an utter fucking idiot. Now fuck off.

 

[ddraig]

Of course it has.

How do you persuade people who are obsessed, to the level that they will kill themselves for their 'cause' though?

The fanatics are not going to listen to reason, and although small in number, can wreak substantial havoc, as has been demonstrated on both sides of the pond.

Unless there is help from within the Muslim community, identifying and stopping these people is impossible.

There is a huge problem here, which is that a small number of people, working in isolated cells can be undetectable, until something happens. Manufacturing a car bomb is relatively simple. I would expect that to happen. (It has been tried, but due to 'technical difficulties', thankfully none has exploded.)

As I see it, the problem is insurmountable, it is something we are going to have to learn to live with.

so you don't want them roughed up by squaddies now?

 

[ddraig]

You are an utter fucking idiot. Now fuck off.

no YOU fuck off

 

[SpineyNorman]

You are an utter fucking idiot. Now fuck off.

Yeah sorry, I should have realised you were being 'ironic'. Funny joke, that. Telling that the reason you give for not nuking them is to do with fallout blowing over here though.

Can't be good for your health getting wound up like that by the way, you'll give yourself an ulcer.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Of course it has.

How do you persuade people who are obsessed, to the level that they will kill themselves for their 'cause' though?

The fanatics are not going to listen to reason, and although small in number, can wreak substantial havoc, as has been demonstrated on both sides of the pond.

Unless there is help from within the Muslim community, identifying and stopping these people is impossible.

There is a huge problem here, which is that a small number of people, working in isolated cells can be undetectable, until something happens. Manufacturing a car bomb is relatively simple. I would expect that to happen. (It has been tried, but due to 'technical difficulties', thankfully none has exploded.)

As I see it, the problem is insurmountable, it is something we are going to have to learn to live with.

Surely the question then becomes, how do we secure this help from within the 'muslim community'? One possible way might be to stop bombing the shit out of their country of origin, where many still have family.

 

[1%er]

As I see it, the problem is insurmountable, it is something we are going to have to learn to live with.

I think it is something some people are going to have to live with, but I don't believe it is insurmountable. If and when there is a will to find a solution one will be found.

 

[JimW]

Yeah, and they talked to a couple of neighbours about that who said it sounded like "complete bollocks"

I was arguing about how far they went to target the attack on another forum so checked out this story thinking it would make good evidence. Checked out the Mail's story and it did strike you as someone taking the chance to grab a moment in the spotlight - some event from two months ago where they looked at him funny because of his kegs!

 

[thedockerslad]

I'm guessing you don't get a lot of exposure to irony?

Oh we remember him jumping up and down and throwing his dummy out because he got called lad.

 

[dylanredefined]

Which would, of course, be brave as fuck and not at all cowardly.

Does it really matter whether they were brave or cowardly? Either way they're brutal, murdering scumbags.

If they were cowardly you could scare them off. Supposedly PIRA were professional so if your security was good they would notice that and pick on someone else. As they wanted to live to fight another day. This lot don't care if they live or die.

 

[Belushi]

According to the standard they met at Greenwich Uni, which makes me wonder whether one or both of them studied at the old Island Site there or lived in Thomas Spencer Halls, which would make them familiar with the barracks.

 

[Belushi]

Also, the standard reports that one of them went to secondary school in Kidbrooke, as did the shoe bomber fella (Richard Reid?) albeit he attended Thomas Tallis. It would be quite a coincidence if two islamist terrorists grew up in the same area and didn't know each other.

 

[Dillinger4]

I wonder how they prepared themselves for this.

When the same thing happened to Daniel Pearl all those years ago, I thought a lot about what it would have been like. It is not like shooting someone. It is not even like guillotining someone. It would be an intensely kind of, intimate experience. You would have to be close. It wouldn't be quick.

It is a big leap to go from preaching hate to actually practicing it (or is it?)

I don't know. I wonder the same about other people like Anders Behring Brevik. I wonder what they think about the actual experience. Do they regret the act itself, but justify it with whatever they believe in? Do they think about it at all later on?

I know its a question that can never really be answered. I just wonder.

 

[cesare]

I was arguing about how far they went to target the attack on another forum so checked out this story thinking it would make good evidence. Checked out the Mail's story and it did strike you as someone taking the chance to grab a moment in the spotlight - some event from two months ago where they looked at him funny because of his kegs!

Yep. And the other reason it's probably bollocks is because there are *so* many nationalities, skin colours, migrant v residential, types of clothing, religions, etc that you can't make *any* assumptions on the basis of combat trousers. If they'd targeted and attacked that guy it could have turned out he was a Muslim hailing from the Middle East. Complete bollocks story.

 

[laptop]

Also, the standard reports that one of them went to secondary school in Kidbrooke, as did the shoe bomber fella (Richard Reid?) albeit he attended Thomas Tallis. It would be quite a coincidence if two islamist terrorists grew up in the same area and didn't know each other.

Not necessarily.

If I'd grown up (or failed to grow up) in Kidbrooke I'd be looking for an excuse to fuck shit up...

 

[SpineyNorman]

If they were cowardly you could scare them off. Supposedly PIRA were professional so if your security was good they would notice that and pick on someone else. As they wanted to live to fight another day. This lot don't care if they live or die.

Interesting point. In that respect it makes them harder to tackle I suppose, but then again members of republican paramilitary groups would, I imagine, generally have carried out several attacks before their terrorist careers were over so a small number of people could inflict much more damage over a longer period of time. These sorts need to recruit new 'soldiers' for every attack. Not sure where I'm going with that one...

That said, I think this is a point you could make without the need to use morally charged and contested terms like 'bravery' and 'cowardice'.

 

[Casually Red]

If they were cowardly you could scare them off. Supposedly PIRA were professional so if your security was good they would notice that and pick on someone else. As they wanted to live to fight another day. This lot don't care if they live or die.

if you look at what happened in that massarene attack recently they didnt even give a fuck about security despite there being an armed guard in a post directly overlooking the gate . They just walked up to a bunch of squaddies at almost point blank range and the security shit itself and hit the deck.

Hundreds of these woolwich type guys will be returning from syria in the coming weeks, months and years, deeply radicalised and very experienced . And most likely with contacts for modern equipment . Although foetus face may well supply plenty of it .

Massarene type scenarios could well start playing out in Britian . And in all honesty I think that could well be a feature of your life for a very long time to come as your foreign policy is very unlikely to change any time soon . And I believe that more than anything is going to be the driving force for this stuff .

In the 19th century you had wave upon wave of Irish immigrants and for generations thereon in you had fenian dynamiting and assassination outrages . Special branch had to be created as a result . More waves of immigration and you had IRA units of second and third generation carrying out bombings and assassinations, arms raids etc in virtually every decade of the 2oth century from 1916 onwards . And networks of subsersives even before that . And thats still capable of spluttering on and reigniting again .

Now you face the same type of phenomenon emerging from other influxes of immigrants and they play by a different set of rules . I honestly dont think this type of thing is going to go away , it could well be generational .

 

[Casually Red]

Interesting point. In that respect it makes them harder to tackle I suppose, but then again members of republican paramilitary groups would, I imagine, generally have carried out several attacks before their terrorist careers were over so a small number of people could inflict much more damage over a longer period of time. These sorts need to recruit new 'soldiers' for every attack. Not sure where I'm going with that one...

and what if they just change tactics, which could well happen .

 

[SpineyNorman]

and what if they just change tactics, which could well happen .

Then it changes, obviously. But if they went to a more IRA-like strategy they'd also lose the advantages dylanredefined described. But we can only really look at what they're doing now unless we have information to suggest a change in tactics is in the pipeline can't we?

I think the whole martyr's death thing, with the virgins and whatnot, is an important part of the motivation though, even if its importance is often exaggerated and so this might stop that kind of change taking place, or at least shape what form that change might take.

 

[Casually Red]

Then it changes, obviously. But that's hardly a revelation is it? We can only really look at what they're doing now unless we have information to suggest a change in tactics is in the pipeline.

I think the whole martyr's death thing, with the virgins and whatnot, is an important part of the motivation though, even if its importance is often exaggerated.

i dont think so . First of all i think the primary motivation is a genuine anger at what the imperialist countries are actually doing to their fellow muslims . I think the identification with them and the furious anger at their being bombed and occupied is where it all starts . We are having a debate on another thread as to whether or not the religious extremism is more a badge of cultural identity than the motivation for the actions . I think a lot of the analysis is back to front on this .

Back in the late 70s and early 80s Hezbollah for example used to launch mass wave suicide attacks with all that martyr stuff . But later on they adapted to different tactics, only using the suicide option when the target was utterly essential and there was no other way of doing it . They would very rarely ever do that now , particularly as they invest so much time and effort in military training and tactics . And that Lebanon is so small compared to Israel and the west .

I think that stuff is overplayed . Even communists and the like used to launch suicide attacks without any religious belief to call on . Your overlooking real anger about whats going on in the world and real identification with those who are experiencing utterly horrific things accross the world . I think thats were the motivation for these horrendous deeds often starts, with other horrendous deeds committed by the civilised west . And nobody is talking about tackling that at source , when i believe its the fuel for the fire .

 

[Belushi]

Not necessarily.

If I'd grown up (or failed to grow up) in Kidbrooke I'd be looking for an excuse to fuck shit up...

I was down that way last year, the Ferrier is mostly gone now, the new flats look nice but I dont know whether it's like the Haygate and most of the old residents wont be coming back.