Woolwich soldier killed (was "Did cops just shoot 2 dead in woolwich?")

[Sasaferrato]

I'd say you're about 100% wrong.
As far back as I can remember (and I'm sure Sass and coley can remember even further back! ), you're inculcated with personal security awareness. Not just when you're on base/in uniform, but 24/7, and it penetrates well enough that you've always got your antennae tuned for things "out of the ordinary".
I'm not putting the onus for his death on the soldier, btw, I'm simply saying that your assumptions about his state of mind are likely to be inaccurate.



Such as?
Most of the places I'd target, given the materiel they had to hand, would be of the same calibre. As I said earlier, access to materiel dictates tactics. If you have a rocket-launcher, you go after a harder target. If you have cutlery, a car and a pistol, you go after a softer target. This isn't to do with cowardice (although I can understand that it appeals to you, and to many others to make it an issue of courage or the lack of it), it's to do with pragmatism.



Yes.



Yes, I know. I've acknowledged that fact over and again. It's a shame you've been unable to take that on board, due to your apparent fondness for emotional argument over critical thinking.
Running at the old bill isn't "brave", neither is it "stupid", "heroic" or a thousand other judgemental words. It was what it was - an attempt to end a mission on their terms rather than on the terms of their opponents.

When I joined up, which was before most of you were born, we were taught in basic training, that when you go off base on the piss, one person remains sober, and keeps an eye out for the rest. It was just after the Guildford bombings, so things were quite tense.

 

[T & P]

On an unrelated news but one that is further going to give a hard-on to the EDL knuckle dragging brigade if confirmed, it sounds as if two passengers just tried to bring down a Pakistani Airlines plane as it was preparing to land in Manchester. Diverted to Stanstead and landed safely.

A witness speaking in Urdu to Pakistani station Geo TV, said that two men over 6 feet tall tried to enter the pilot's cabin.
Other witnesses say the pair made a number of threats.
Essex Police have confirmed that two men aged 30 and 41 have been arrested on suspicion of endangerment of an aircraft after the plane landed safely at Stansted.

http://news.sky.com/story/1095214/fighter-jets-scrambled-to-passenger-plane

 

[Sasaferrato]

You acknowledge that it was brave. Now maybe we are getting somewhere. Yes, it was a result of the path they had taken: the path of murder and probable death. This included the decision not to flee the scene of their gruesome murder, but to stay, give statements and wait for Plod. They had already decided to sacrifice themselves for their cause. You hate to acknowledge that they have courage, but it is obvious that they did and even you partially acknowledge it.



Identifying the childishness of ultra-leftists, in Little Father Lenin's assessment, contributes nothing to your attempt to portray these murderers as cowardly.

I think it is childish to pretend that courageous evil is cowardice. Calling these jihadis cowardly is about on the level of saying they smell of poo.

They are cowards. Two to one, run your victim over, then attack an unarmed man with bladed weapons. Vile cowardice.

Personally, when they are well again, they should be given to then RRF to 'play' with. Let them feel what the poor bastard they murdered felt like.

Cowardly, murdering scum.

 

[JimW]

Did they actually cut off his head btw? The woman who talked to the blokes and was interviewed says she didn't see any sign of that, and the paper reports I've seen that mention it - which is not all of them, many say "hacked/stabbed to death" etc - say things like "apparently".

Was asking that earlier too based on same grounds as you - AFAICT they didn't succeed and whether they tried is interpretation of the hacking.

 

[1%er]

But that was to do with zionism, not religion (as such)

I think they thought they were fighting a nationalist war but not a religious/holy one if you see what I mean.

Baruch Goldstein was more of a religious terrorist though, and some of the Kahanist stuff

I understand your point, but they were both Jewish and Zionists were they not, I'm not sure you can separate religious terrorism from political terrorism, it is all about ideology isn't it? Every Islamist claims to be a Muslims but not every Muslims claim to be Islamist. It seems to me that Islamist philosophy is just the politicization of a religion.

Other points

A quick look across the globe and it is amazing how many "terrorists" have become leaders of their country or elected politicians, even in Brazil (not known as a hot-bed of terrorism) we have a leader who was imprisoned between 1970 and 72 as a terrorist.

The USA and other declared a "global war on terrorism" in 2001, this resulted in an international campaign where the USA went around the world plucking people they considered terrorists from any country they wanted, other would call it kidnapping, special rendition Etc.

If the USA sees the battleground as global I would expect their enemies to use the same battleground.

 

[butchersapron]

They are cowards. Two to one, run your victim over, then attack an unarmed man with bladed weapons. Vile cowardice.

Personally, when they are well again, they should be given to then RRF to 'play' with. Let them feel what the poor bastard they murdered felt like.

Cowardly, murdering scum.

Not keen on the rule of law then? Your posts on Ireland become so much clearer now.

 

[frogwoman]

I understand your point, but I'm not sure you can separate religious terrorism from political terrorism, it is all about ideology isn't it? Every Islamist claims to be a Muslims but not every Muslims claim to be Islamist. It seems to me that Islamist philosophy is just the politicization of a religion.

Other points

A quick look across the globe and it is amazing how many "terrorists" have become leaders of their country or elected politicians, even in Brazil (not known as a hot-bed of terrorism) we have a leader who was imprisoned between 1970 and 72 as a terrorist.

The USA and other declared a "global war on terrorism" in 2001, this resulted in an international campaign where the USA went around the world plucking people they considered terrorists from any country they wanted, other would call it kidnapping, special rendition Etc.

If the USA sees the battleground as global I would expect there enemies to use the same battleground.

My point is that they saw themselves as secular, they saw the jews as a nation and not a religion, whereas the recent lot are seeing it as a religion so you get people trying to attack the dome of the rock and rebuild the temple on it and justify the murder of palestinians by going on about Amalek who God commanded the jews to destroy in the bible and saying that the palestinians are the new Amalek. Whereas before it was like "we want our own country" and like a nationalist/imperialist thing, and now there's still the nationalism but with mad religious bollocks on top of it. By the way most jewish people probably don't even know that this bollocks exists. The justifications for supporting israel's actions that usually gets talked about (and they increasingly aren't seen as justified at all) are the standard ones like self defence and all the ones we're familiar with on here.

 

[Sasaferrato]

I understand your point, but they were both Jewish and Zionists were they not, I'm not sure you can separate religious terrorism from political terrorism, it is all about ideology isn't it? Every Islamist claims to be a Muslims but not every Muslims claim to be Islamist. It seems to me that Islamist philosophy is just the politicization of a religion.

Other points

A quick look across the globe and it is amazing how many "terrorists" have become leaders of their country or elected politicians, even in Brazil (not known as a hot-bed of terrorism) we have a leader who was imprisoned between 1970 and 72 as a terrorist.

The USA and other declared a "global war on terrorism" in 2001, this resulted in an international campaign where the USA went around the world plucking people they considered terrorists from any country they wanted, other would call it kidnapping, special rendition Etc.

If the USA sees the battleground as global I would expect there enemies to use the same battleground.

In which case, should we not be carrying their battle back to them? We have the capacity to render any country's capital to a glowing ruin.

 

[The39thStep]

hey trees! islamic fundamentalists are nothing compared to cuts, benefits attacks etc. and how do the left protest em? by getting pissed in a car park like the edl? the point is if there are any we dont know where they are even if they did represent something more than wankers like those 2 guys and anjem choudry. as for classist criticism of EDL see this and the EDL for our criticisms on that 1. for many of us, antifascists look just like em, went to the same schools, tedious football matches and leisure wear vendors!!!

you're not into football though

 

[Idris2002]

In which case, should we not be carrying their battle back to them? We have the capacity to render any country's capital to a glowing ruin.

For pity's sake, Sas. . .

 

[1%er]

My point is that they saw themselves as secular, they saw the jews as a nation and not a religion, whereas the recent lot are seeing it as a religion so you get people trying to attack the dome of the rock and rebuild the temple on it and justify the murder of palestinians by going on about Amalek who God commanded the jews to destroy in the bible and saying that the palestinians are the new Amalek. Whereas before it was like "we want our own country" and like a nationalist/imperialist thing, and now there's still the nationalism but with mad religious bollocks on top of it.

I have no idea what or how these people think or what motivates them. I just wanted to point out that Jewish people have been involved in terrorism, what banner one puts them under is an individual choice.

In which case, should we not be carrying their battle back to them? We have the capacity to render any country's capital to a glowing ruin.

I have no idea what "we" should do. I don't have a dog in the fight.

 

[butchersapron]

I have no idea what or how these people think or what motivates them. I just wanted to point out that Jewish people have been involved in terrorism, what banner one puts that under is an individual choice.

I have no idea what "we" should do. I don't have a dog in the fight.

Do you not?

 

[frogwoman]

I have no idea what or how these people think or what motivates them. I just wanted to point out that Jewish people have been involved in terrorism, what banner one puts that under is an individual choice.

I have no idea what "we" should do. I don't have a dog in the fight.

yeah they have but not as a religious thing, they tried to justify their actions by saying "we want our own country, look how we're persecuted etc" ie pretty much exclusively by whats going on in the real world (although they were cunts, but their motivations were something that was half related to reality), not what it says in the bible and not by referring to religious bollocks. In the past zionism was seen as a secular thing, most of the early zionists hated religion because they saw it as too pacifist and most interpretations of it were always telling people not to fight back.

most of the early zionists would have laughed their arses off if they heard people go on about god, the temple, and the command to destroy amalek, they saw religion as a weakness holding them back not as a motivation for them to do what they were doing.

 

[1%er]

Do you not?

Do I not what "have a dog in the fight" or "any idea of what their motivation is"?

 

[ddraig]

They are cowards. Two to one, run your victim over, then attack an unarmed man with bladed weapons. Vile cowardice.

Personally, when they are well again, they should be given to then RRF to 'play' with. Let them feel what the poor bastard they murdered felt like.

Cowardly, murdering scum.

and what about 'brave' 'soldiers' who sit thousands of miles away controlling drones to murder people?

wipe that spittle from your mouth and get a grip, 'should be given to the RRF', such a good christian aren't you

 

[ddraig]

In which case, should we not be carrying their battle back to them? We have the capacity to render any country's capital to a glowing ruin.

because that's worked well so far hasn't it!
jesus you're such a parody

 

[FridgeMagnet]

I know Sas doesn't think much of London but nuking it's going a bit far.

 

[Casually Red]

just saw an interview with some guy on the news there who seems to have had a lucky escape . He was in the same area and was wearing combat pants and boots , his accent makes it obvious hes an immigrant , and these 2 guys followed him for a bit and then engaged him in converstaion . They were asking him questions about why he was dressed like that . Then they walked off . Lucky man by the sounds of it .

 

[manny-p]

just saw an interview with some guy on the news there who seems to have had a lucky escape . He was in the same area and was wearing combat pants and boots , his accent makes it obvious hes an immigrant , and these 2 guys followed him for a bit and then engaged him in converstaion . They were asking him questions about why he was dressed like that . Then they walked off . Lucky man by the sounds of it .

What tv station did you see that on mate?

 

[Casually Red]

What tv station did you see that on mate?

BBC

 

[butchersapron]

mate = support our mates, all in it together.

 

[malatesta32]

you're not into football though

damn straight! its polo all the way for moi!

 

[Pingu]

I know Sas doesn't think much of London but nuking it's going a bit far.

ooooh I dunno...

the plan has its merits

 

[xes]

They are cowards. Two to one, run your victim over, then attack an unarmed man with bladed weapons. Vile cowardice.

Personally, when they are well again, they should be given to then RRF to 'play' with. Let them feel what the poor bastard they murdered felt like.

Cowardly, murdering scum.

As right as you are that this was a vile act, you can't fight violence with violence, it will just breed more of the same. And it saddens me that people can't see it. The EDL and their response, is going to victimise good honest Muslim people, folk who are just as horrified as everyone else at what has happened, prehaps even more horrified as it was done "in the name" of their religion. An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. The hatred and the killing has to stop somewhere man.

 

[Casually Red]

Billy no mates..lol

 

[Casually Red]

As right as you are that this was a vile act, you can't fight violence with violence, it will just breed more of the same. And it saddens me that people can't see it. The EDL and their response, is going to victimise good honest Muslim people, folk who are just as horrified as everyone else at what has happened, prehaps even more horrified as it was done "in the name" of their religion. An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. The hatred and the killing has to stop somewhere man.

these guys wanted to start a war in england, mayhem on the streets . They definitely knew which buttons to push .

 

[xes]

these guys wanted to start a war in england, mayhem on the streets . They definitely knew which buttons to push .

Why give them the satisfaction? If this is what they want, do the opposite. Next muslim you meet, hug the fucker and tell him or her that you love them. Love is stronger than hate.

 

[Casually Red]

Why give them the satisfaction? If this is what they want, do the opposite. Next muslim you meet, hug the fucker and tell him or her that you love them. Love is stronger than hate.

like the sentiment but i honestly wouldnt advise walking up to women in burkhas and hugging them . Or muslim men either . Seriously..please dont do that .

 

[manny-p]

mate = support our mates, all in it together.

Hey lad. Still pissed off are we?

 

[xes]

like the sentiment but i honestly wouldnt advise walking up to women in burkhas and hugging them . Or muslim men either . Seriously..please dont do that .

I've never been one to take advise of others. Will let you know how tonite pans out