Woolwich soldier killed (was "Did cops just shoot 2 dead in woolwich?")

[coley]

Of course it has.

How do you persuade people who are obsessed, to the level that they will kill themselves for their 'cause' though?

The fanatics are not going to listen to reason, and although small in number, can wreak substantial havoc, as has been demonstrated on both sides of the pond.

Unless there is help from within the Muslim community, identifying and stopping these people is impossible.

There is a huge problem here, which is that a small number of people, working in isolated cells can be undetectable, until something happens. Manufacturing a car bomb is relatively simple. I would expect that to happen. (It has been tried, but due to 'technical difficulties', thankfully none has exploded.)

As I see it, the problem is insurmountable, it is something we are going to have to learn to live with.

As has been mentioned bombs and bomb making are likely to flag up on the system whereas this type of attack needs no preparation, is likely so succeed because it comes out of nowhere,the worst thing is the instant news and notoriety it generates. Hope I'm wrong but I suspect we are going to see more of this.

 

[butchersapron]

i dont think so . First of all i think the primary motivation is a genuine anger at what the imperialist countries are actually doing to their fellow muslims . I think the identification with them and the furious anger at their being bombed and occupied is where it all starts . We are having a debate on another thread as to whether or not the religious extremism is more a badge of cultural identity than the motivation for the actions . I think a lot of the analysis is back to front on this .

Back in the late 70s and early 80s Hezbollah for example used to launch mass wave suicide attacks with all that martyr stuff . But later on they adapted to different tactics, only using the suicide option when the target was utterly essential and there was no other way of doing it . They would very rarely ever do that now , particularly as they invest so much time and effort in military training and tactics . And that Lebanon is so small compared to Israel and the west .

I think that stuff is overplayed . Even communists and the like used to launch suicide attacks without any religious belief to call on . Your overlooking real anger about whats going on in the world and real identification with those who are experiencing utterly horrific things accross the world . I think thats were the motivation for these horrendous deeds often starts, with other horrendous deeds committed by the civilised west . And nobody is talking about tackling that at source , when i believe its the fuel for the fire .

What happens after identification?

 

[Casually Red]

What happens after identification?

im not 100 percent sure as im not a muslim or overly familiar with their structures of radicalisation. I could only specualte .
Id imagine that after identifying with the victims of a war theres a desire to take a side in that war, and even play a role within it .

 

[1%er]

As has been mentioned bombs and bomb making are likely to flag up on the system whereas this type of attack needs no preparation, is likely so succeed because it comes out of nowhere,the worst thing is the instant news and notoriety it generates. Hope I'm wrong but I suspect we are going to see more of this.

It makes one wonder when the first Brit will be killed by weapons supplied by the British government to some very doggie groups right now. It would seem that some Americans have been killed in Libya by weapons supplied to opposition groups by the USA.

 

[SpineyNorman]

i dont think so . First of all i think the primary motivation is a genuine anger at what the imperialist countries are actually doing to their fellow muslims . I think the identification with them and the furious anger at their being bombed and occupied is where it all starts . We are having a debate on another thread as to whether or not the religious extremism is more a badge of cultural identity than the motivation for the actions . I think a lot of the analysis is back to front on this .

Back in the late 70s and early 80s Hezbollah for example used to launch mass wave suicide attacks with all that martyr stuff . But later on they adapted to different tactics, only using the suicide option when the target was utterly essential and there was no other way of doing it . They would very rarely ever do that now , particularly as they invest so much time and effort in military training and tactics . And that Lebanon is so small compared to Israel and the west .

I don't disagree with any of that really - completely agree that in general the specifically Islamic part of Islamic terrorism is exaggerated in its importance. But I think with attacks like this one it's slightly different from Hexbollah - they're actually on the ground in Lebanon - their recruits are those suffering at the hands of the enemy. That's not the case with these guys and I think you may well find that their faith played a much bigger role than it might in Lebanon.

It's all speculation anyway - you can only really analyse the way they are working - otherwise you'd have to take into account a potentially infinite number of possible strategic changes.

I think that stuff is overplayed . Even communists and the like used to launch suicide attacks without any religious belief to call on . Your overlooking real anger about whats going on in the world and real identification with those who are experiencing utterly horrific things accross the world . I think thats were the motivation for these horrendous deeds often starts, with other horrendous deeds committed by the civilised west . And nobody is talking about tackling that at source , when i believe its the fuel for the fire .

I agree that that stuff is overplayed - I even mentioned in that post that it's often exaggerated. But it's daft and simplistic to then make the leap to assuming it doesn't matter at all.

And you're wrong when you say nobody is talking about tackling that at source - people have done just that on this thread. Me for a start:

Surely the question then becomes, how do we secure this help from within the 'muslim community'? One possible way might be to stop bombing the shit out of their country of origin, where many still have family.

 

[butchersapron]

im not 100 percent sure as im not a muslim or overly familiar with their structures of radicalisation. I could only specualte .
Id imagine that after identifying with the victims of a war theres a desire to take a side in that war, and even play a role within it .

What do we (people who push pro w/c politics) do next? Not what the state does.

 

[butchersapron]

i dont think so . First of all i think the primary motivation is a genuine anger at what the imperialist countries are actually doing to their fellow muslims . I think the identification with them and the furious anger at their being bombed and occupied is where it all starts . We are having a debate on another thread as to whether or not the religious extremism is more a badge of cultural identity than the motivation for the actions . I think a lot of the analysis is back to front on this .

Back in the late 70s and early 80s Hezbollah for example used to launch mass wave suicide attacks with all that martyr stuff . But later on they adapted to different tactics, only using the suicide option when the target was utterly essential and there was no other way of doing it . They would very rarely ever do that now , particularly as they invest so much time and effort in military training and tactics . And that Lebanon is so small compared to Israel and the west .

I think that stuff is overplayed . Even communists and the like used to launch suicide attacks without any religious belief to call on . Your overlooking real anger about whats going on in the world and real identification with those who are experiencing utterly horrific things accross the world . I think thats were the motivation for these horrendous deeds often starts, with other horrendous deeds committed by the civilised west . And nobody is talking about tackling that at source , when i believe its the fuel for the fire .

Misses entirely any domestic input, entirely concentrated on overseas. No idea idea of how past radicalisation took place in a different context, one where people were disciplined by the imposed solidarity of work and education, nothing about the destruction of compact housing - no, only british foreign policy. Only your political needs.

 

[SpineyNorman]

It makes one wonder when the first Brit will be killed by weapons supplied by the British government to some very doggie groups right now. It would seem that some Americans have been killed in Libya by weapons supplied to opposition groups by the USA.

 

[1%er]

What do we (people who push pro w/c politics) do next?

You are well known in these parts for pushing w/c politics, what do you think the w/c do next?

 

[Casually Red]

Misses entirely any domestic input, entirely concentrated on overseas. No idea idea of how past radicalisation took place in a different context, one where people were disciplined by the imposed solidarity of work and education, nothing about the destruction of compact housing - no, only british foreign policy. Only your political needs.

im not writing a fucking thesis . Its just one point about an issue thats overlooked, not an entire fucking political theory .

you always have to be the smartest fucking communist in the class .

 

[butchersapron]

im not writing a fucking thesis . Its just one point about an issue thats overlooked, not an entire fucking political theory .

It was supposed to be pretty comprehensive though. It's not hard to mention these other things. If you can see them that is.

 

[Casually Red]

What do we (people who push pro w/c politics) do next? Not what the state does.

we elect you fucking leader and then you tell us what we should do, hopefully not by the medium of a cryptic crossword

 

[Casually Red]

It was supposed to be pretty comprehensive though.

what was..and who said so

 

[butchersapron]

we elect you fucking leader and then you tell us what we should do, hopefully not by the medium of a cryptic crossword

As soon as he's asked a question to which 'the brits' isn't the answer he is stuck.

 

[Sasaferrato]

As has been mentioned bombs and bomb making are likely to flag up on the system whereas this type of attack needs no preparation, is likely so succeed because it comes out of nowhere,the worst thing is the instant news and notoriety it generates. Hope I'm wrong but I suspect we are going to see more of this.

A few cwt of ammonium nitrate, sparked by a single stick of blasting gelignite, bingo, you have a car bomb. We used ammonium nitrate as a commercial explosive, still do in fact. It came in a granular form, that you used to pack cracked rock, where the gelignite charge had not quite done the job. Amminol is the trade name.

 

[sihhi]

Back in the late 70s and early 80s Hezbollah for example used to launch mass wave suicide attacks with all that martyr stuff . But later on they adapted to different tactics, only using the suicide option when the target was utterly essential and there was no other way of doing it . They would very rarely ever do that now , particularly as they invest so much time and effort in military training and tactics .

Your chronology is incorrect here. Hezbollah didn't exist properly until 1982, when it was formed as a second (heavily Iran-inspired and funded) Shiite movement focused around attacking Western UN and Israeli soldiers and installations, not doing what Amal did which was fighting other Sunni/Druze/Christian militia as part of a civil war.

Its suicide bombers that carry out attacks between 1983-86 are nearly all part of the Shiite population, (recently forced by IDF or SLA out of their southern Lebanon rural homes), in the slums of Trablus, Beirut and Bekaa valley.

Spectacular attacks were meant to nudge people away from Amal to Hezbollah, since the latter 'could get things done' - Hezbollah did overrely on the suicide bombers after the US withdrawal believing that similar tactics would work against internal opponents.

It's a different kind of approach what's been going on with these terror plots. The manner of the mutilating execution will edge away Islamist sympathisers who believe it is up to God to punish after an enemy has been killed.

Even the Taliban in 2009 started instituting new rules about prisoners and using no torture or unusual methods of death against captives whether grade A enemy or collaborators. I can only see the event as an own goal from their perspective.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Surely the question then becomes, how do we secure this help from within the 'muslim community'? One possible way might be to stop bombing the shit out of their country of origin, where many still have family.

And you, personally, are going to achieve this... how, exactly?

If you can turn the clock back twenty years, you are indeed remarkable.

 

[butchersapron]

what was..and who said so

You, surely - unless you deliberately gave a partial account of what motivates people to do this and why/how people are produced that try it. If you did, why cut out what i mentioned?

 

[Sasaferrato]

no YOU fuck off

<Sigh.>

 

[SpineyNorman]

And you, personally, are going to achieve this... how, exactly?

If you can turn the clock back twenty years, you are indeed remarkable.

Where did I, personally, say I could do this? And why would time travel be necessary?

I think you should probably go and have a bit of a nap or something.

 

[coley]

How

Surely the question then becomes, how do we secure this help from within the 'muslim community'? One possible way might be to stop bombing the shit out of their country of origin, where many still have family.
These two came from the UK as did the tube bombers,and when we pull out of Afghanistan, we will all be able to relax?

 

[ddraig]

<Sigh.>

all spittled out?

 

[sihhi]

By way of contrast on political needs, pro-Iraq war, pro-US collaboration David Lammy says that British military operations are irrelevant, effectively saying it's just random that they chose an off-duty soldier they are crazed masculinity-hunters:

Similarly, the suggestion that the murder was a direct consequence of British foreign policy is superficially compelling – some even tried to suggest to me that my vote in favour of the invasion of Iraq contributed to James' death – but now that British troops have left Basra and are due to leave the dusty plains of Helmand next year, who truly believes this will spell the end of attacks like these? And even if they could, what sovereign nation can possibly have its foreign affairs dictated to by a violent minority?
We need to start by looking closer to home. There is no escaping the fact that terrorist attacks have almost exclusively been led and executed by young men. Males isolated from the rest of society, fixated by a binary world view where there is only faith and infidelity. But these profoundly alienated young men are not only to be found in Britain's Muslim communities – vulnerable males looking to fill a vacuum in a life absent of camaraderie and purpose are common to all ethnicities.

 

[coley]

A few cwt of ammonium nitrate, sparked by a single stick of blasting gelignite, bingo, you have a car bomb. We used ammonium nitrate as a commercial explosive, still do in fact. It came in a granular form, that you used to pack cracked rock, where the gelignite charge had not quite done the job. Amminol is the trade name.

Used all the time just over the road, bliddy open casts, but trying getting your hands on large amounts of explosives ingredients isn't easy these days,in fact it's this which led to at least a couple off attempts being thwarted.

 

[SpineyNorman]

How

Sort your formating out mate - can't tell what's been quoted and what you've said yourself.

But if you're saying what I think you're saying then I doubt it would get much worse - and 'we' are going to have to leave at some point. If we follow your logic then 'we' can never end the occupation, which will lead to constant escalation of terrorist attacks.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Has sass just posted a bomb making recipe and given clues as to the trade names of the necessary ingredients?

 

[Sasaferrato]

I think it is something some people are going to have to live with, but I don't believe it is insurmountable. If and when there is a will to find a solution one will be found.

Worldwide, radical Islam is on the ascendancy. Look at the situation in Syria, and also in Iraq. The government of Pakistan; leaving aside the fact that their intelligence services leak like a sieve; does not have control of the North of the country, and haven't had since the inception of the nation. The might of the British Empire didn't either.

Every middle eastern country that has fragmented is spawning yet another radical Islamist group. Al Queda, despite its decapitation appears to thrive.

I thought to myself earlier, with absolute power,and no conscience, what would I do to rid Britain of this. I cannot think of a single solution that would have a chance of working, no matter how brutal. The answer I feel, will come from within the Muslim community. When we get to the point, where that community feel more affinity for Britain than for the Muslim faith and their 'parent' country, the situation will change.

 

[Casually Red]

As soon as he's asked a question to which 'the brits' isn't the answer he is stuck.

i dont live in england, i dont have a handle on the dynamics of all the aspects of its society . I know next to fuck all about its leftist groups and often give even less of fuck although I wish all progressives well. I dont even come from an industrialised or post industrial society. You know this very well . All that theory is of no use to me so I dont waste my time obsessing with it . Learning chinese would be more use.
What I do have a bit of a handle on though is the cause and effect of various reactions to armed imperialism, about the raw emotions that evokes among those who for one reason or another identify strongly with its victims . And how that anger and frustration and desire to hit back can send very ordinary non violent people down paths were all sorts of things become possible . Because thats the stuff that happened in my society and I can see similar things happening now .

So when I see things I recognise I point to elements of cause and effect and try and analyse and discuss that as opposed to the entire dynamics of a society I dont live in, often dont understand to a degree I could start pontificating to others on and which frankly are of little use to me as I dont live there . But which nonthless interest me so Ill add my two cents worth if thats alright to you .

Which you know . But it would be an absolute catastrophe if, god forbid, you missed an opportunity to sound clever . Preferably with added crypticism, as an affectation .

 

[thedockerslad]

You are well known in these parts for pushing w/c politics, what do you think the w/c do next?

The proletariat awaits butchersaprons

 

[laptop]

Has sass just posted a bomb making recipe and given clues as to the trade names of the necessary ingredients?

And is he aware of the offence of possessing information useful to a terrorist?