Woolwich soldier killed (was "Did cops just shoot 2 dead in woolwich?")

[sihhi]

possibly facile point

butchersapron, you're castigating CR for closure after pointing out british foreign policy.
how can we avoid dead end politics over this?
surely it's possibly to attack british foreign policy and look at the domestic realities at the same time?

 

[butchersapron]

possibly facile point

butchersapron, you're castigating CR for closure after pointing out british foreign policy.
how can we avoid dead end politics over this?
surely it's possibly to attack british foreign policy and look at the domestic realities at the same time?

That's my point young man. It wasn't one/other.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Quite right too.

Indeed. We don't ban Argentinian Restaurants though, or blame every Argentinian for the invasion. In fact, rather than in the occasional 'gung ho' remembrance, we have pretty much forgotten about it.

 

[ddraig]

do grow up

if you're referring to where i got hit by a taxi and knocked off in broad daylight when it was my right of way and my legs are still bad from it, then great dig! well done

 

[SpineyNorman]

Aye and if these two in Woolwich and the tube bombers had been from Iraq, Afghanistan I could have been halfway there to understanding their actions, it's trying to get a handle on home grown radicalisation which bothers me.

Yeah I do think the motivations are different, though linked in some ways. But having a significant part of the Muslim population with serious grievances against British foreign policy must make it easier for them to hide - just like if the IRA hadn't had so much support among Catholics in NI it would have been easier to deal with them - for various reasons. They might feel more inclined to help them hide, or at least less inclined to inform on them. And I dare say there are some who may express support online etc for these actions but who would never do them (and if they saw it up close would likely be as disgusted as anyone else) - absent these grievances that kind of 'noise' would surely be reduced.

I'm just thinking out loud now by the way, this is probably full of holes.

 

[Sasaferrato]

If you are looking at it from a "rid Britain" view, you will not find an answer. There is a global war on terrorism and Britain is part of that war. This killing has brought the war onto the streets of the UK in a very brutal fashion, the people who planned this action have achieved what they wanted, they have raised the issue to the top of the agenda across the world, not only with media coverage but also political coverage.

The IRA did the same when they took their war to the mainland UK and forced it to the top of the agenda, there is now peace in N.I I believe.

Sort of.

Edited to add:

So, your conclusion is? What do you think that radical Islam will 'settle' for? 50% of the seats... oops sorry, that is 30% for the Shia and 20% for the Sunni... Even within the faith itself there is murderous infighting. The use of suicide bombers in Iraq for example. These attacks are not against the west, they are against fellow Muslims of the wrong stripe.

Trying to get a handle on this, seems to make herding cats a sinecure.

 

[butchersapron]

do grow up

if you're referring to where i got hit by a taxi and knocked off in broad daylight when it was my right of way and my legs are still bad from it, then great dig! well done

You know that i wasn't - why pretend that you thought that i was? I've never even heard of your taxi crash - i was on about your cycle path moaning when england played. But then you knew that didn't you?

 

[rioted]

Aye and if these two in Woolwich and the tube bombers had been from Iraq, Afghanistan I could have been halfway there to understanding their actions, it's trying to get a handle on home grown radicalisation which bothers me.

Are you halfway to understanding why home grown squaddies are out in Iraq, Afghanistan killing/bombing people?

 

[ddraig]

You know that i wasn't - why pretend that you thought that i was? I've never even heard of your taxi crash - i was on about your cycle path moaning when england played.

i wasn't responding to you and have had no issue with you in this thread so no idea why you appear to have a problem

 

[butchersapron]

This wasn't a reply to my post? OK, no worries (it could be though )

do grow up

if you're referring to where i got hit by a taxi and knocked off in broad daylight when it was my right of way and my legs are still bad from it, then great dig! well done

 

[coley]

put this on another thread but it might be relevant to an extent

http://www.fortnight.org/oruairc429.html

Raises some interesting points esp. the majority of Irish people didn't get involved with republicanism, and the "supranational Irish identity" replace that with " the supra fervent Muslim convert" perhaps.
One thing is striking, the absence of religion in the article.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Raises some interesting points esp. the majority of Irish people didn't get involved with republicanism, and the "supranational Irish identity" replace that with " the supra fervent Muslim convert" perhaps.
One thing is striking, the absence of religion in the article.

The convert is always the most eager.

 

[ddraig]

This wasn't a reply to my post? OK, no worries (it could be though )

no it was a reply to this one from the charming frances

It's not as if you've made a single constructive post. And it seems like every time I look at the cycle commute thread, you're always falling off your bike - What's going on with that?

You're utterly preposterous, man.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Yep. That was the point I was making to Spiny, which he didn't get. The timeline goes back twenty, or more, years. As regards radicalisation, the moment Richard the Lionheart got on his horse...

I got it alright - it's just an idiotic argument. By that logic 'we' should never leave. And violence taking place right now resonates far more strongly than historic violence - in fact it's violence that's happening now that makes historic violence important and relevant.

In reality the longer 'we' are there the worse it will get.

It's spiney by the way.

 

[goldenecitrone]

The convert is always the most eager.

Bit over eager in this case.

 

[sihhi]

That's my point young man. It wasn't one/other.

I did put a disclaimer in the first line.

To what extent does ethnicisation of otherwise class issues contribute?
> Immigrant (working-)class-based self-identification is smothered under
i. bland integrationism 'do as well we can/make them jealous' of the older middle-class sector and
ii. the sense that 'white/indigenous and non-white/immigrant working-class people can't know the other side's difficulties'.

I'm taking both sides here as working-class 'combatants' - one a machine-gunner off-duty rotas determined from above, the other a machete warrior with their own rota.
Ideally we want to have both sides participate into a working-class movement - is that fair?

 

[butchersapron]

I did put a disclaimer in the first line.

To what extent does ethnicisation of otherwise class issues contribute?
> Immigrant (working-)class-based self-identification is smothered under
i. bland integrationism 'do as well we can/make them jealous' of the older middle-class sector and
ii. the sense that 'white/indigenous and non-white/immigrant working-class people can't know the other side's difficulties'.

I'm taking both sides here as working-class 'combatants' - one a machine-gunner off-duty rotas determined from above, the other a machete warrior with their own rota.
Ideally we want to have both sides participate into a working-class movement - is that fair?

Ideally yeah -and for each to recognise their interest in the other. Don't ask me how

 

[Sasaferrato]

I got it alright - it's just an idiotic argument. By that logic 'we' should never leave. And violence taking place right now resonates far more strongly than historic violence - in fact it's violence that's happening now that makes historic violence important and relevant.

In reality the longer 'we' are there the worse it will get.

It's spiney by the way.

Apologies for the missing 'e'.

The point really, is that there is nothing we can do to ameliorate the cause. You cannot roll back time. It makes no odds whether we bring our troops home tomorrow or next century. ' The moving finger writes... '. On that basis, then the sooner we get our troops out, the better.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Apologies for the missing 'e'.

The point really, is that there is nothing we can do to ameliorate the cause. You cannot roll back time. It makes no odds whether we bring our troops home tomorrow or next century. ' The moving finger writes... '. On that basis, then the sooner we get our troops out, the better.

Which is all I was saying. When the violence stops the historic violence becomes less important. It's not like flicking a switch - it's not ever going to be that simple - but there's a reason why Richard the Lionheart motivates people in the Muslim world in a way that it didn't before the second world war.

 

[Casually Red]

And yet in the last thirty years the IRA never went in for suicide bombings ( at least not intentionally) where do you think the difference lies?

well the hungerstrikes proved that the issue of certain death and martyrdom isnt entirely cultural, even the Iranians were taken aback in 81 and sent reps to Bobby Sands funeral . The notion of blood sacrifice goes right back to 1916 and was a major plank of their ideology, and I wouldnt doubt among the various groups thered have been some people prepared to do it . But the difference between the IRA and these jihadist extremists on that particular level is that they were firmly rooted within their communities , it may be hard for you to understand but even those who didnt agree with them , who were the majority, could often respect them to a degree . And there were as a result of that severe constraints placed upon them by what those communities were prepared to tolerate being done in their countrys name . Civilian casualties were an absolute disaster for them . People here, including republicans, were sickened and outraged whenever that happened .

And then theres their political lineage which they viewed as crucial, and the dictum from the 1916 proclamation with its exhortation we pray that no one who serves this cause will dishonour it by cowardice, inhumanity or rapine . Not that there werent those who ignored it . And with that baggage of historical lineage you have the issue of the IRAs roots, norms and rules going back a very long time , arguably to the 19th century . So you would have had old school types succeeding and failing to varying degrees in keeping the lid on some of the madder schemes and directions . And a rule book they had to adhere to which was all very strict on that stuff .

So with the jihadists you dont have any of that, theyre pretty much divorced from much of their communities and really not getting any help or encouragement from that quarter . So theres less , indeed no, constraints on them, no moderation . They make their own rules up as they go along, mind you so do the western powers .They point more to whats happening to muslims abroad than in Britian as their raison detre and when your using that example of hundreds of thousands dead in Iraq..yup i know Britian has pulled out but those people arent coming back to life any time soon..then there appears to be very little rules or constraint upon either side.

But having said all that as unpleasant as the things in Ireland were they were mainly that, unpleasant . Had drones and missiles, white phosphorus and the like been raining down on people the thing could have gotten a hell of a lot worse . I dont even want to think about it and what peoples response might have been to that.

 

[sihhi]

Ideally yeah -and for each to recognise their interest in the other. Don't ask me how

After posting, I am guilty of making things too rigid and simplistic - after all British-born immigrants (ie not Fijians and Tongans) do enlist, and not all converted terror plotters are non-white immigrants.
But I remember someone saying 'unemployment, it's alright for English youth, they can just go join the army, not like ours'

 

[coley]

Are you halfway to understanding why home grown squaddies are out in Iraq, Afghanistan killing/bombing people?

See earlier reply.

 

[IC3D]

Casually Red Who are the most common extremists, converts and Pakistanis? The vast majority of Muslims are in the UK to make money and have families like everyone else, as are Pakistanis but that community definitely have a propensity to extremism probably linked to the complicated politics back home, but most recent immigrants are running from one form of extremism or another already and don't want to create more also I'd of thought if they hate someone its another country like France in North African communities or the other flavour of Islam in their part of the middle east or Jews, Kurds.. ad infinitum. London is a melting pot and the British aren't the first port of call to hate for most eh.

 

[Casually Red]

Right so we're on the same page, you wasn't closing it off there and the stuff i posted can/should be added to yours?

a lot of it can, thats why i get so pissed off when you go cryptic and i dont know whats being said . I want to get a handle on stuff .

 

[FNG]

So with the jihadists you dont have any of that, theyre pretty much divorced from much of their communities

aye, Thats a pattern/trend i noticed coming from the fallout from the "13 point Siege" in Bangladesh, many of the madrassa students failed to tell their parents of their participation prior to the event. Which to some degree suggests a generational gap might be developing between radicalised youth and the communities from which they come.

 

[cantsin]

And yet in the last thirty years the IRA never went in for suicide bombings ( at least not intentionally) where do you think the difference lies?

the IRA used suicide as a tactic in 1981, as you must surely know

 

[Casually Red]

Casually Red Who are the most common extremists, converts and Pakistanis? The vast majority of Muslims are in the UK to make money and have families like everyone else, as are Pakistanis but that community definitely have a propensity to extremism probably linked to the complicated politics back home, but most recent immigrants are running from one form of extremism or another already and don't want to create more also I'd of thought if they hate someone its another country like France in North African communities or the other flavour of Islam in their part of the middle east or Jews, Kurds.. ad infinitum. London is a melting pot and the British aren't the first port of call to hate for most eh.

im going back a good while here , pre 9 11 but i remember quite a number of reports of London being the favoured destination of a lot of the more radical salafist clerics . At the same time France took a back seat as regards Iraq, cheese eating surrender monkeys and all that . France was the target of some serious islamist bombings pre 911 , but not much after it .
What Blair did was put Britian at the forefront of this war on terror, which they translate as a war on muslims, and theres been no admission of doing anything wrong bar a few minor mistakes and no real stepping back from that whole warlike ideology of conquest . Ive certainly noticed even from this vantage point what looks like a ramping up of the militarism in Britian ever since then, an increase in the poppy fascism, the help for heroes stuff, the Cowell aid, Harry in his fucking apache of death . Those are like war drums to some people, and a red rag to others . Britian just seems to be in constant war mode and thats an atmosphere that very easily in my view reinforces the war mode of the jihadists . Its all around them and reinforces everything theyre saying about war and conflict and crusaders.

As regards the pakistani thing my only real experience of that was for a couple of years in the NE of england a long time ago and coming from where I did Id never seen that before and I was really taken aback about how little integration there seemed to be . How there seemed to be simply an organic transplant of people from a very Islamic tribal and even mountain society to a modern England where they just seemed to get on with what they usually did back home . And I thought to myself that really cant be a good thing . Im not really sure what my thoughts on it are except I really wouldnt want it happening here to that degree, it doesnt strike me as healthy . So when youve already got a cultural divorce to a degree, with people coming from a region where extremism is a matter of form..it stands to reason your going to get problems from that direction too . Maybe Britian needs to look at its model of multiculturalism too because it looks to me like its really not fit for purpose , in some areas anyway.

 

[1%er]

And yet in the last thirty years the IRA never went in for suicide bombings ( at least not intentionally) where do you think the difference lies?

They didn't need to, taking their war to the mainland did the job, if it hadn't who knows what they would have done. It is clear that many in the IRA were prepared to die for the cause, so suicide bombings could have been the next step.

 

[cesare]

Not necessarily.

If I'd grown up (or failed to grow up) in Kidbrooke I'd be looking for an excuse to fuck shit up...

Maybe, but it's more like you have to fight shit all the time. So all that survival fighty stuff can get diverted without realising.

 

[goldenecitrone]

They didn't need to, taking their war to the mainland did the job, if it hadn't who knows what they would have done. It is clear that many in the IRA were prepared to die for the cause, so suicide bombings could have been the next step.

Maybe they had a smaller pool of operatives so didn't want to squander any in suicide attacks.