Woolwich soldier killed (was "Did cops just shoot 2 dead in woolwich?")

[manny-p]

Not sure what your point is? Civilians aren't legit targets but he was? Not the same a a civilian so that doesn't make it that bad? Open up the second front?

Yeah he is a legit target. He is British Army. Butchering people in Afghanistan and elsewhere, they have a record of butchering going back hundreds of years.

 

[The39thStep]

So not condoning what happened to him but he was a legitimate target?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I don't think this is just about imperialism. And I also don't think attacking coalition forces in Iraq etc or doing what the IRA did or what palestinian etc armed groups do is the same as what these cunts did.

I'm not necessarily agreeing with what these groups did btw I'm just saying it's completely different to kill someone who's not directly involved in fighting you, in your own back yard, far away from where the wars are going on. One can legitimately be seen as part of a war as much as you or i might disagree with it. and the other .. well ...

From what they said, they certainly thought British soldiers were directly involved in fighting them. They saw themselves as part of a 'them' that war is being waged against. And they were very specific about who they wanted to kill, weren't they? Showed no sign of wanting to go after anyone random.

 

[frogwoman]

Also I don't think that irish republicanism can remotely be compared to islamism of the type these guys believe in, I'm not convinced that their only goal is to get everyone out of "muslim lands" or end an occupation, I think they also have a religious agenda and they use the real world stuff as a means to encourage people to buy in to that agenda.

 

[butchersapron]

what comrades are those

and what is it you think they were reacting to

To your post that again flattens all beheadings to being equal. And that all political violence is free of. Why did your comrades not do as they did if all horror is equal?

 

[The39thStep]

Yeah he is a legit target. He is British Army. Butchering people in Afghanistan and elsewhere, they have a record of butchering going back hundreds of years.

So why aren't you involved in attacking these legit targets yourself or is it best led to others?

 

[telbert]

British army is a volunteer army and anyone signing up in the last few years knew they would serve a tour or two in Afghanistan or Iraq. So it's entirely logical for a jihadist to see them all as willing killers of muslims. It doesn't suit them to differentiate between infantry, bandsmen, cooks, medics, chaplains etc etc

And no doubt they didnt think that John Wilson street,Woolwich was deep,deep behind enemy lines either.Looks like the rules have changed. Lets not hear you bleating "they're civillians"when a jihadist gets shot by the security forces in britain.As i said ,the rules have changed.

 

[frogwoman]

From what they said, they certainly thought British soldiers were directly involved in fighting them. They saw themselves as part of a 'them' that war is being waged against. And they were very specific about who they wanted to kill, weren't they? Showed no sign of wanting to go after anyone random.

Yeah I know. I'm not saying that it didn't motivate them at all but what I'm saying is that it wasn't just that.

 

[xenon]

I'm trying to examine the point about courage and cowardice.

Why. Where does it get us in considering what's happened here. Other than drawing an empty moral equivalence between individuals supposed sense of personal courage.

 

[butchersapron]

Where did I suggest that? You suggesting someone suggested something and the actual occurence can be complete coincidence. You make stuff up. Very often. Fuck knows why.

In your feverish anti-media posts. What would you have at the top - mung bean salad off while some polish girl gets it out a bucket.

 

[manny-p]

So not condoning what happened to him but he was a legitimate target?

Precisely. I don't agree with what they done. But I am not going to lose sleep over it. If you are in the military- you have signed up to kill people on behalf of the rich. I'm poor and from a working class background but I have never wanted to join the forces to go brutalise folk in different lands.

 

[Casually Red]

British army is a volunteer army and anyone signing up in the last few years knew they would serve a tour or two in Afghanistan or Iraq. So it's entirely logical for a jihadist to see them all as willing killers of muslims. It doesn't suit them to differentiate between infantry, bandsmen, cooks, medics, chaplains etc etc

half the cunts on this site have been cheering on exactly the same sort of cunt doing exactly the same thing to Libyan and Syrian conscripts . While the other half have been wishing identical plagues on both houses . Now it happens in their backyard the humanity bursts forth all of a sudden and they go bananas your not queuing up trying to get into a Simon Cowell charity line up to sing a hymn for humanity. And questioning your humanity for having the temerity to point out you dont feel like joining in with the shock horror jamboree .

 

[butchersapron]

And no doubt they didnt think that John Wilson street,Woolwich was deep,deep behind enemy lines either.Looks like the rules have changed. Lets not hear you bleating "they're civillians"when a jihadist gets shot by the security forces in britain.As i said ,the rules have changed.

Is that right nigel.

 

[butchersapron]

half the cunts on this site have been cheering on exactly the same sort of cunt doing exactly the same thing to Libyan and Syrian conscripts . While the other half have been wishing identical plagues on both houses . Now it happens in their backyard the humanity bursts forth all of a sudden and they go bananas your not queuing up trying to get into a Simon Cowell charity line up to sing a hymn for humanity. And questioning your humanity for having the temerity to point out you dont feel like joining in with the shock horror jamboree .

Which half doing that did you go for btw?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

And no doubt they didnt think that John Wilson street,Woolwich was deep,deep behind enemy lines either.Looks like the rules have changed. Lets not hear you bleating "they're civillians"when a jihadist gets shot by the security forces in britain.As i said ,the rules have changed.

Let's hope not. Labour have already called for a rescussitating of the snooper's charter in light of this. Looks like these two were acting alone and with no training.

 

[manny-p]

Also I don't think that irish republicanism can remotely be compared to islamism of the type these guys believe in, I'm not convinced that their only goal is to get everyone out of "muslim lands" or end an occupation, I think they also have a religious agenda and they use the real world stuff as a means to encourage people to buy in to that agenda.

I think you will find that it is the political injustice that must of these jihadi folk in the UK join up.

 

[Frumious B.]

Why. Where does it get us in considering what's happened here. Other than drawing an empty moral equivalence between individuals supposed sense of personal courage.

Doesn't get us anywhere, I was just responding to people accusing the killers of cowardice. But it's not a point worth much consideration.

 

[telbert]

And on that note, it really is goodnight.

 

[The39thStep]

Precisely. I don't agree with what they done. But I am not going to lose sleep over it. If you are in the military- you have signed up to kill people on behalf of the rich. I'm poor and from a working class background but I have never wanted to join the forces to go brutalise folk in different lands.

Legit target but you don't agree that he shouldn't have been run over and stabbed to death? Why not if he was a legit target? Or have you got other suggestions as to how legit targets can be dealt with?

 

[Casually Red]

To your post that again flattens all beheadings to being equal. And that all political violence is free of. Why did your comrades not do as they did if all horror is equal?

what the fuck are you on about, what is political violence free of ?

 

[frogwoman]

I think you will find that it is the political injustice that must of these jihadi folk in the UK join up.

It's political injustice that makes some people go and be zionist settlers in the west bank. It doesnt excuse it, you see exactly the same sort of "justifications" be used. A war against our people, look what's happening in europe, look what's happening here there and everywhere we've all got to stand together and fight etc. They use real world shit to excuse what they do and encourage people to join them and justify whatever murderous actions they take the same as these cunts do.

You might have good intentions at the start but how long in a milieu that only see's political injustice against one race or religion and stretches the definition of it to include "immorality" and a decadent culture and all that shit before you start to carry on that same shit yourself.

 

[manny-p]

It's political injustice that makes some people go and be zionist settlers in the west bank. It doesnt excuse it, you see exactly the same sort of "justifications" be used. A war against our people, look what's happening in europe, look what's happening here there and everywhere we've all got to stand together and fight etc. They use real world shit to excuse what they do and encourage people to join them and justify whatever murderous actions they take the same as these cunts do.

You might have good intentions at the start but how long in a milieu that only see's political injustice against one race or religion and stretches the definition of it to include "immorality" and a decadent culture and all that shit before you start to carry on that same shit yourself.

You were saying it was ok to kill british soldiers in afghanistan? So if they had taken a flight over to kabul, found a british soldier and done the same thing over there it would be ok? But not in your backyard?

 

[coley]

how clear do i have to make this...jihadists should not be running about hacking soldiers heads off in london or Damascus, British soldiers should not be running about hacking peoples heads off either . Not even nazi heads , or japanese heads, or Malayan communist heads, or Maus Maus heads or Argentinian heads . And not Islamic heads. But the fact is they both do . And to me theres fuck all difference who does it . And what bemuses me is the attempts by various quarters in Britain to occupy the moral high ground when it comes to the entire business of running around chopping your enemies head off like a fucking lunatic .

What's done on the battlefield is one thing, what's done in a quiet residential area is another, I do wish you would take your revolutionary fervour elsewhere and join a jihadist group and post your experiences from Allepo or similar.
Your armchair support and justification for Assad and other murderous types gets a bit wearing.

 

[xenon]

I think i just heard my alarm call.
As i've already said,death is nothing to fear for a jihadist 67 virgins an' all that(personally i'm with Billy Connelly on this. I,d much rather have 67 fucking sluts waiting in heaven for me.)

Just 67 now? Times are hard in Jammah I guess.

 

[frogwoman]

You were saying it was ok to kill british soldiers in afghanistan? So if they had taken a flight over to kabul, found a british soldier and done the same thing over there it would be ok? But not in your backyard?

I wasn't saying it was OK ffs !! I was saying that afghans fighting the british and these cunts killing a random guy on the street was completely different. And had different motivations behind it. And I think british citizens going to kabul for that would be just as mental.

 

[The39thStep]

I think you will find that it is the political injustice that must of these jihadi folk in the UK join up.

I think you will also find that it is exactly the political injustice of the jihadists that cause others who come from the same background and who also feel political injustice to fight against them. Most jihadists might be 'anti imperialist' but are deeply conservative if not reactionary in their views.

 

[manny-p]

I wasn't saying it was OK I was saying it was different. And had different motivations behind it.

The motivations are exactly the same.

 

[coley]

Are you suggesting that any combatant who carries the advantage in an asymmetrical conflict is necessarily a coward?

Are you suggesting these two were 'combatants,?

 

[manny-p]

I think you will also find that it is exactly the political injustice of the jihadists that cause others who come from the same background and who also feel political injustice to fight against them. Most jihadists might be 'anti imperialist' but are deeply conservative if not reactionary in their views.

Agreed. Don't get me wrong I hate jihadis.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think you will find that it is the political injustice that must of these jihadi folk in the UK join up.

I agree with this. I think we have to believe what the men themselves said about their motivation. But it is possible to deplore what the UK army is doing without in any way supporting this. I have more sympathy for desperate people trapped by the actions of oppressive forces who have few options and see killing an occupying soldier as fighting back. But these two were British. They had options. Their desperation was at best vicarious.