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Woolwich soldier killed (was "Did cops just shoot 2 dead in woolwich?")

littlebabyjesus said:
Yep. This is the bit that mystifies me, too. These two weren't just produced by Islamism. They were also produced by, and entirely alienated from, British society.
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dude..for the past 2 years your government has been paying these cunts millions to do exactly the same thing in syria and champing at the bit to give them guns and send in the bombers, before that it was libya, before that it was Yugoslavia, before that it was Afghanistan . All cheered on as heroic freedom fighting ..then its barbaric terrorism for bit..then its heroic freedom fighting again .

and you seriously wonder why this happens in your country
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Because I'm a twat, I watched a beheading video once, many years ago. I really wish I hadn't. This was probably about ten years ago. It might just be timing - quite a few twats like me were watching them at the time.

I still feel like a twat for admitting this even now. I wasn't a teenager. But I would hope that most people watching them would react like I did - with deeply felt revulsion.
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There's a bit of a craze for 'gore' on the net these days I'm reliably informed. Beheadings, all kinds of sick stuff - one in particular that was taken by a gang of (I think Russian) serial killers who beat their victims to death with a hammer - and it took a long time too - I've not watched it but I know a couple of people who have, through peer pressure. It's most certainly not just jihadis, or refugees, that look at this kind of shit. Spend a bit of time on 4chan if you don't believe me. Seems like it's something people do partly out of curiosity (like your beheading I would guess) and partly to prove to their peers that they can 'handle' it.

The people I know who've watched these things certainly aren't in danger of ever doing it themselves and I imagine that's the case with the vast majority of people who watch them - in fact being disturbed by them seems to be kind of part of the attraction - that it's something you're disgusted by and would never condone but you can 'handle' watching it anyway.

Of course it's also the kind of thing people who are for whatever reason tempted to carry these kinds of things out would watch. And it can't be good for your mental state to be watching this kind of stuff. But it would be a big mistake to assume that the vast majority of people who've watched them are any more likely than you or I to do anything like that. This is the case regardless of whether they were born in this country or entered as refugees or immigrants IMO.

As you seem to be implying, very easy to read way way too much into it. Fucking disturbing that anyone wants to watch this kind of stuff beyond maybe once out of curiosity if you ask me though, regardless of whether they're going to do a bit of the old copycat.
 
treelover said:
Apparently Tommy Robinson will have a BBC film crew with him on Saturday in Newcastle for a Doc that will screen in the summer
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BBC rewarding terrorism. Why can't they follow an urbanite around? Not long enough criminal records? Don't find the Oslo massacre funny enough? not enough incitement on the site?

Fucking disgusting.

eta: assuming "apparently" claim is true.
 
SpineyNorman said:
There's a bit of a craze for 'gore' on the net these days I'm reliably informed. Beheadings, all kinds of sick stuff - one in particular that was taken by a gang of (I think Russian) serial killers who beat their victims to death with a hammer - and it took a long time too - I've not watched it but I know a couple of people who have, through peer pressure. It's most certainly not just jihadis, or refugees, that look at this kind of shit. Spend a bit of time on 4chan if you don't believe me. Seems like it's something people do partly out of curiosity (like your beheading I would guess) and partly to prove to their peers that they can 'handle' it.

The people I know who've watched these things certainly aren't in danger of ever doing it themselves and I imagine that's the case with the vast majority of people who watch them - in fact being disturbed by them seems to be kind of part of the attraction - that it's something you're disgusted by and would never condone but you can 'handle' watching it anyway.

Of course it's also the kind of thing people who are for whatever reason tempted to carry these kinds of things out would watch. And it can't be good for your mental state to be watching this kind of stuff. But it would be a big mistake to assume that the vast majority of people who've watched them are any more likely than you or I to do anything like that. This is the case regardless of whether they were born in this country or entered as refugees or immigrants IMO.

As you seem to be implying, very easy to read way way too much into it. Fucking disturbing that anyone wants to watch this kind of stuff beyond maybe once out of curiosity if you ask me though, regardless of whether they're going to do a bit of the old copycat.
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my experience was ten years ago, when afiak, it wasn't a common thing to do,

of course most people don't watch them, of any ethnicity.
 
JHE said:
I've noticed several times on U75, when Islamonut murderers are being discussed, that people who want (rightly, IMO) to condemn the killers insist (wrongly, IMO) that the killers are cowards.

The murderers are hateful Sharia-mongering shits, but they are not cowards. In fact, they tend to be a very self-sacrificing bunch. They risk their lives - or deliberately throw their lives away - for their cause. They have the courage of their fanaticism, bolstered by their belief that dying in jihad makes them martyrs and so ensures their passage to heaven. Islamoshite fanatics make formidable fighters, as Soviet and later US and other Western soldiers have learnt in Afghanistan. Sadly, there is no shortage of them.

Why do people here insist these ruthless killers are cowards? I guess it's because calling someone a coward is a way of condemning them and calling someone brave sounds like praise. I think it is better to look at the world more clearly and speak more honestly. People with horrible reactionary politics and murderous methods are not necessarily cowards, just as people with progressive ideas are not necessarily brave.
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That's just down to shit writing skills - "Cowardly thug"/"Cowardly terrorist" - It's just how people with poor descriptive powers describe these things - By resorting to cliche. Nothing deeper than that.
 
SpineyNorman said:
The people I know who've watched these things certainly aren't in danger of ever doing it themselves and I imagine that's the case with the vast majority of people who watch them - in fact being disturbed by them seems to be kind of part of the attraction - that it's something you're disgusted by and would never condone but you can 'handle' watching it anyway.
.
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I sincerely wish I hadn't. It took a long time to get it out of my head. And it taught me zero about anything (my bollocks self-justification for doing it was that I would learn something) - just made a bad memory.
 
Frances Lengel said:
That's just down to shit writing skills - "Cowardly thug"/"Cowardly terrorist" - It's just how people with poor descriptive powers describe these things - By resorting to cliche. Nothing deeper than that.
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sometimes there's nothing else you can say about it though. sometimes there are no words except cliches.
 
frogwoman said:
sometimes there's nothing else you can say about it though. sometimes there are no words except cliches.
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Well yes & no - And I'm catching up with this thread - Only up to p47 ATM, so bear with me. I've no real opinion as to whether these fellas were cowards or not - It doesn't fucking matter IMO, they did what they did & what they did has fuck all to do with cowardice or bravery, it was an atrocity. And the fact that similar or worse atrocities are happening elsewhere doesn't make this one any more or less severe.

I've not really got a problem with people describing them as cowardly except, IMO, it misses the point by a country mile.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Demanding that others pay respect to him for being a soldier is a political position, though. I won't use that language. I feel very sorry for him and his family, but I don't see that his position as a soldier demands my respect.
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I didn't demand respect, I said pay respect, he was a bloke who was in the service of his country, and was murdered as a result, not killed in action, but murdered, not by armed jihadists/ irregulars/terrorists/insurgents or whatever, in their own country, but by people, who he had a right to feel safe around him.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
That's not really true, cr. There is plenty of opposition to the wars, even from 'small c' conservatives like my parents.
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im not talking about the british people, im talking about the British government and its media mouthpieces . And Labour have started worse wars than the tories in recent times. For over 2 decades armed radical islam and jihadism was actively sponsored by Britian and to some extent given a safe haven while both were fighting a common enemy, Russia, Yugsoslavia, Gaddaffi .Now its Assad. London was always a favoured destination for their ideologues for a very long time pre 9 11 .
The British state has empowered and coddled these people on and off for a very long time, longer than theyve been at odds with each other . And then in the last few years when politics required it they were freedom fighters all over again . Jihadism became acceptable again , a noble profession once more.
When the BBC praises them as freedom fighters for years and the British state pays and arms them in their crusades, and provides them with air cover thats some serious mixed messages to be sending .Because these are the very same people, dont doubt that for a second .
 
coley said:
I didn't demand respect, I said pay respect, he was a bloke who was in the service of his country, and was murdered as a result, not killed in action, but murdered, not by armed jihadists/ irregulars/terrorists/insurgents or whatever, in their own country, but by people, who he had a right to feel safe around him.
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You demanded that people 'pay respect'. As for 'in service of his country', well yes, that is how many people view it. Kurt Vonnegut's last book was called 'A man without a country'. He was very clear about why he now felt he had no country - because of what his country had become. You make political statements without even realising it, I think.
 
Casually Red said:
im not talking about the british people, im talking about the British government and its media mouthpieces . And Labour have started worse wars than the tories in recent times. For over 2 decades armed radical islam and jihadism was actively sponsored by Britian and to some extent given a safe haven while both were fighting a common enemy, Russia, Yugsoslavia, Gaddaffi .Now its Assad. London was always a favoured destination for their ideologues for a very long time pre 9 11 .
The British state has empowered and coddled these people on and off for a very long time, longer than theyve been at odds with each other . And then in the last few years when politics required it they were freedom fighters all over again . Jihadism became acceptable again , a noble profession once more.
When the BBC praises them as freedom fighters for years and the British state pays and arms them in their crusades, and provides them with air cover thats some serious mixed messages to be sending .Because these are the very same people, dont doubt that for a second .
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I agree. Three decades, though. They did this with Afghanistan in the 80s too. How large is the radical islamist component in the opposition to Assad? Serious question. I don't know.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
You demanded that people 'pay respect'. As for 'in service of his country', well yes, that is how many people view it. Kurt Vonnegut's last book was called 'A man without a country'. He was very clear about why he now felt he had no country - because of what his country had become. You make political statements without even realising it, I think.
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hes an ex soldier so its understandable hed take a stronger position on it than others. For the record despite me not being a fan of the British army I think everyones dead deserve to be treated with respect . Even my enemies.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
I agree. Three decades, though. They did this with Afghanistan in the 80s too. How large is the radical islamist component in the opposition to Assad? Serious question. I don't know.
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without a doubt theyre at the forefront of it . Being the most effective force in the feild entails having the lions share of the gear . Which means theyre the ones whove been receving most foreign backing . The leader of the NTC resigned because not only did he not have any control over them but because even the FSA types were lining up behind them due to strings attached on aid by their foreign sponsors. Who are largely Salafi by disposition. Even those who didnt start out as salafist have lined up with them and come under their control and influence.
Looking at all the reports coming from accross syria, not just the Assad mouthpieces , but from Lebanon, the christians , druze and even the assassinated cheif sunni cleric the message has been consistent for years. The bulk, or what seems like the bulk of the fighting groups seem to be heavily comprised of wahhabists, often foreign . And Ive seen nothing that contradicts that .

And right from the outset thereve been numerous reports of British accents among them.
 
The Telegraph interviewed the lady who talked to the machete holder, she makes an observation.

Ten minutes passed. A crowd had gathered around the dead soldier, but still nobody else approached the suspects.
“There were 50 to 60 people,” says Mrs Loyau-Kennett. “They were watching; filming on their phones. I pushed one back because he was too close. I told them if they want to do something, come and help. It made me sad. They were thinking of themselves, not about this poor guy.
 
treelover said:
I wasn't going to post this, but I used to be involved with a computer project where many migrant and refugees would use the net, etc: at the end of the day when it was time to switch off the computers, I would be shocked to see that at least once a week, a site was opened that showed decapitations, killings, etc mostly in the middle east, but also Pakistan, Indonesia, etc, one even had a axe in a mans head, I don't know the provenance of the images, Jihadi or perhaps, resistance movements, but this was ten years ago and I was shaken by what I saw. I am aware that M/E TV and other channels regularly broadcast some images , but couldn't shake the feeling that for some of these people their tolerance to violence was much higher than mine and people I know.
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In recent years the warring Mexican drug cartels have been 'creative' in dealing with those who get in their way.
 
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