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Woolwich soldier killed (was "Did cops just shoot 2 dead in woolwich?")

coley said:
What's done on the battlefield is one thing, what's done in a quiet residential area is another,

I do wish you would take your revolutionary fervour elsewhere and join a jihadist group and post your experiences from Allepo or similar.
Your armchair support and justification for Assad and other murderous types gets a bit wearing

.
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i really hope thats not alzheimers
 
frogwoman said:
Also I don't think that irish republicanism can remotely be compared to islamism of the type these guys believe in, I'm not convinced that their only goal is to get everyone out of "muslim lands" or end an occupation, I think they also have a religious agenda and they use the real world stuff as a means to encourage people to buy in to that agenda.
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I'm going to disagree with you on this. I think their agenda is to disrupt the ordinary everyday lives of those they see as ignorant to their cause. If you think Catholisism isn't a religious agenda that has caused the same kind of terrible murders of ordinary working class people as Islam I suggest you think again.
 
butchersapron said:
Yeah they were cowards. Pathetic to not give the other bloke a chance cowards (immediate cowardice) , pathetic cowards who thought their life was more important than anyone elses (philosophical/theological cowardice) - wasting your life ain't brave, it's cowardice (kiddy cowardice).
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Insofar as you are prepared to sacrifice your life for what you believe in? Then no, they are not cowards, and I'm speaking as someone who detests any attempt to justify murder as a legitimate means to achieve an political objective.
There are hundreds of words that can be used to describe their horrific actions, but 'cowards' is not one of them.
 
I just don't like people going around killing people in the name of religion and I think that these guys were doing that, I also think that because they were against imperialism and whatever their other views about how they want society to be are probably getting ignored, and I doubt they were very pleasant.

Like I know lots of people who become zionists are convinced they are doing the right thing and "helping thier people" with what they're doing, even though nobody has really asked for their "help", but lots of them see the whole thing as part of a religious war, and the real world shit the persecution and that that goes on, that they're reacting to, helps them to justify it, it doesn't justify it in moral terms though, but it allows them to get support and feel that they are halfway legitimate.

I'm sure lots of Christian, Hindu fundamentalists who try to use violence for a religious cause, think they are doing the same thing. the fact they're responding to real world stuff doesn't make it any better, although it helps to explain things, but it doesn't make the rest of what they think and do right does it?
 
thedockerslad said:
I'm going to disagree with you on this. I think their agenda is to disrupt the ordinary everyday lives of those they see as ignorant to their cause. If you think Catholisism isn't a religious agenda that has caused the same kind of terrible murders of ordinary working class people as Islam I suggest you think again.
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im not saying anything to do with islam, im talking about religiously motivated terrorism/violence, not a whole religion

sorry if it wasnt clear
 
butchersapron said:
To be brave entails a risk. To you and to the people the family behind you. To make yourself a zombie is not brave. It is the most public cowardice abailible.
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hmm, if you view bravery as some kind of philosophical or moral construct perhaps, but if you view bravery as something closer to an emotional state ie, they were shitting themselves but did it anyway then i think they could be called brave, and that bravery isn't always a good thing, which i dont think it is
 
littlebabyjesus said:
I agree with this. I think we have to believe what the men themselves said about their motivation. But it is possible to deplore what the UK army is doing without in any way supporting this. I have more sympathy for desperate people trapped by the actions of oppressive forces who have few options and see killing an occupying soldier as fighting back. But these two were British. They had options. Their desperation was at best vicarious.
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Id agree completely with that . Just because I dont like the imperialist armies and powers it doesnt equate with supporting these types of headers. And not jumping in with emotional tide surrounding this doesnt equate to any kind of support either.

But Id also refer back to what Ive been saying over the past year or so, about what is likely to happen when British born followers of the head hackers in syria start drifting home with all that experience know how and contacts under their belt.

The UK government and others are very serious about wanting to arm and empower exactly the same sort of headers who did this , and they are exactly the same type of people. And the UK media has been and continues to whip up support for their noble cause . To these guys hacking the head off a British squaddie for the cameras in woolwich and a Syrian squaddie in Aleppo, and eating bits of him for the cameras, is exactly the same cause , exactly the same thing. No difference to them whatsoever . And I know whos side Im on for in Syria and it certainly isnt theirs . Nor is it in woolwich. Difference between me and the twats accusing me of supporting all sorts here is im consistent in opposing them regardless of the geography and regardless of who it is they happen to be chopping up this week as opposed to last week. And next week .

I just dont think their geography has any special immunity from the forces imperialist powers have unleashed on other previously quiet residential areas .
 
Anudder Oik said:
v5-Lee-Rigby3.jpg


As if it weren't tragic enough when their lives are wasted in Afghanistan...The boy was a drummer.
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I am beginning to feel physically sick thinking what happened to that lad, and yes, I know we are delivering the same 3000 miles away
 
butchersapron said:
In your feverish anti-media posts. What would you have at the top - mung bean salad off while some polish girl gets it out a bucket.
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It won't be hard for you to find where I suggested it. Off you go. I am not fussy about the ethnicity of the girl in that circumstance. Do you see that kinky bucket stuff on websites beyond U75? Are you actually allowed outside of here?
 
thedockerslad said:
I'm going to disagree with you on this. I think their agenda is to disrupt the ordinary everyday lives of those they see as ignorant to their cause. If you think Catholisism isn't a religious agenda that has caused the same kind of terrible murders of ordinary working class people as Islam I suggest you think again.
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republicanism is not catholicism, v poor analogy
 
smokedout said:
hmm, if you view bravery as some kind of philosophical or moral construct perhaps, but if you view bravery as something closer to an emotional state ie, they were shitting themselves but did it anyway then i think they could be called brave, and that bravery isn't always a good thing, which i dont think it is
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I agree. Bravery isn't not being afraid to do something. It's doing something despite being afraid.
 
coley said:
What's done on the battlefield is one thing, what's done in a quiet residential area is another, I do wish you would take your revolutionary fervour elsewhere and join a jihadist group and post your experiences from Allepo or similar.
Your armchair support and justification for Assad and other murderous types gets a bit wearing.
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no offence mate but just last week you were cheering on exactly these types of cunts in the syria thread, and wishing for the day they were decorating the lamp posts of Damascus with the bodies of their secular opponents. Your words.

youve fairly changed your tune now theyre at it in someone elses quiet residential area
 
I wasn't going to post this, but I used to be involved with a computer project where many migrant and refugees would use the net, etc: at the end of the day when it was time to switch off the computers, I would be shocked to see that at least once a week, a site was opened that showed decapitations, killings, etc mostly in the middle east, but also Pakistan, Indonesia, etc, one even had a axe in a mans head, I don't know the provenance of the images, Jihadi or perhaps, resistance movements, but this was ten years ago and I was shaken by what I saw. I am aware that M/E TV and other channels regularly broadcast some images , but couldn't shake the feeling that for some of these people their tolerance to violence was much higher than mine and people I know.
 
treelover said:
I wasn't going to post this, but I used to be involved with a computer project where many migrant and refugees would use the net, etc: at the end of the day when it was time to switch off the computers, I would be shocked to see that at least once a week, a site was opened that showed decapitations, killings, etc mostly in the middle east, one even had a axe in a mans head, I don't know the provenance of the images, Jihadi or perhaps, resistance movements, but this was ten years ago and I was shaken by what I saw. I am aware that M/E TV and other channels regularly broadcast some images , but couldn't shake the feeling that for some of these people their tolerance to violence was much higher than mine and people I know.
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whatever the case its quite likely these guys used those types of videos as a means of building up the mental capacity to carry the attack out .
 
treelover said:
I wasn't going to post this, but I used to be involved with a computer project where many migrant and refugees would use the net, etc: at the end of the day when it was time to switch off the computers, I would be shocked to see that at least once a week, a site was opened that showed decapitations, killings, etc mostly in the middle east, one even had a axe in a mans head, I don't know the provenance of the images, Jihadi or perhaps, resistance movements, but this was ten years ago and I was shaken by what I saw. I am aware that M/E TV and other channels regularly broadcast some images , but couldn't shake the feeling that for some of these people their tolerance to violence was much higher than mine and people I know.
Click to expand...
Because I'm a twat, I watched a beheading video once, many years ago. I really wish I hadn't. This was probably about ten years ago. It might just be timing - quite a few twats like me were watching them at the time.

I still feel like a twat for admitting this even now. I wasn't a teenager. But I would hope that most people watching them would react like I did - with deeply felt revulsion.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
From what they said, they certainly thought British soldiers were directly involved in fighting them. They saw themselves as part of a 'them' that war is being waged against. And they were very specific about who they wanted to kill, weren't they? Showed no sign of wanting to go after anyone random.
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the zionists would like to involve me to join them in their "war" against "injustice".i don't see the world as being at war against me though i see a handful of cunts and the majority of people as being very decent.

i see zionism and Islamism as being very similar, both motivated and fuelled by real world violence and discrimination which helps them maintain a support base among the desperate and marginalised (and i don't just mean in financial etc terms, i also mean in terms of feeling disengaged from society), and of course the feeling of being alienated in western society. when i was growing up some of my mates were thinking of signing up to the IDF and going to Israel because they were angry about what was going on around the world and also their lifes were shit, thank fuck they have realised their mistakes now, but i think a similar feeling must motivate a lot of people that become islamists.like a disengagement from social norms and a feeling (for whatever reason) that you're not part of society, and of course this stuff for someone who's lived all their life in the west is fuelled by reading about things on the news and buying into this whole ideology, which gives you an answer to why things are so shit and a cause to believe in

both are extremely reactionary ideologies and both are being used for the purposes of justifying killing innocent people by the use of the concept of a "religious war" as well as repression of minorities etc and the repression of anything thats remotely leftist or secular. anyone who talks about class as opposed to religious/nationalist bollocks is a traitor and they can do what they like with them.

im not saying i dont understand what attracts people to it but i think allowing people a free pass because of western imperialism or whatever (im not saying anyones doing that) and seeking to explain someone choosing to carry out a terrorist attack in quite simplistic terms like that, is not always helpful.
like how do you even get to the point where this stuff is even considered legitimate, let alone think you should do it, that's what i want to know.

i hope im not talking bollocks btw
 
frogwoman said:
like how do you even get to the point where this stuff is even considered legitimate, let alone think you should do it, that's what i want to know.
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Yep. This is the bit that mystifies me, too. These two weren't just produced by Islamism. They were also produced by, and entirely alienated from, British society.

ETA: As well as their victim's parents, I feel very sorry for their parents too.
 
Gotta say after seeing the footage from the daily mirror of the police shooting and the speed the attackers go for the coppers I've got a renewed respect for their skill and quick thinking

The first guy was shot by a copper still in the car through a window, split second decision making that saved his unarmed colleagues ( the ARV drivers) life

They weren't sat staring at the attackers, aware of the situation, they drove right in to it and it kicked of immediately

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/woolwich-attack-watch-shocking-video-1907772
 
Apparently Tommy Robinson will have a BBC film crew with him on Saturday in Newcastle for a Doc that will screen in the summer
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Yep. This is the bit that mystifies me, too. These two weren't just produced by Islamism. They were also produced by, and entirely alienated from, British society.
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yeah
it scares me because there was a brief period in my life where i was thinking along slightly similar lines because of things I was reading on the internet/people i was speaking too online etc (and also being very isolated socially for a lot of reasons), it didn't last long but it scares the shit out of me.

it's one thing to think about all of this stuff though but to actually do it? how the fuck. just how :(
 
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