Woolwich soldier killed (was "Did cops just shoot 2 dead in woolwich?")

[ViolentPanda]

oh well, you know, rahrah, carry on toodle pip
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22646999

not even pretending to be sad

He's a general. He's not paid to do "sad", he's paid to make sure his command functions efficiently, even if that means all the personnel under him getting turned to human hamburger meat.

 

[elbows]

arrests made for anti-religious comments on facebook? are you serious?

I havent seen the report but its not bloody likely to be general anti-religious comments, it will be incitement to attack anyone of a specific religion etc etc.

 

[malatesta32]

What a trite piece of factory journalism. ( The New Statesmen article)
Trillings book on the BNP has to one of the most lightweight ever written. Laurie penny described him on Twitter as an expert in the far right, chimp and typewriter springs to mind.

thanks for that mate, saved me a few quid and wasting more shelf space!

 

[cantsin]

Did I mention neatly laid out battlefields? I was thinking more along the lines of Afghanistan and Syria not Waterloo.
And those who did "back in the day" seemed to find the experience less than rewarding.

you're just waffling mate, making arbritary calls about what is / isnt "a battlefield ", is / isn't "a combatant", waffle waffle - reality continues to grind on elsewhere, regardless.

 

[ViolentPanda]

glorious martyrdom?

Insurgents don't need to win, they only need tie up the forces of their opponent, so if you've got insurgents prepared to die in order to achieve that, you're (relatively speaking) laughing.

 

[agricola]

Difficult to stoke a revolver, though, unless a shooter is utterly unacquainted with the workings of the gun, or it's so shittily-made that it'll brew up whatever happens. About the only thing you could do to a decently-made revolver to get it to do something like that would be to fill the barrel with molten lead or pewter, or to spike the barrel at the cylinder end, so the bullet has nowhere to go, and the propellant can't get rid of its' exhaust gases.

I think its perfectly valid in instances like this to suggest that the reason that the revolver blew up was because God made it blow up.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Why do the media wheel out Islamofascist Anjem Choudary every time something like this happens- he's just been on Channel 4 News and is due on Newsnight tonight. No sense of regret at what has happened no sense of any humanity in his spoutings of hate.

<shayler>
He just says what his handlers tell him to say.
</shayler>

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think its perfectly valid in instances like this to suggest that the reason that the revolver blew up was because God made it blow up.

Allahu OH FUCK!!!

 

[ViolentPanda]

And I'm supposed to differentiate... how exactly?

By applying the wisdom and sagacity that come with age.

Actually, by that token, shouldn't you be the wisest and most sagacious man on earth? Oh fuck!!!

 

[ViolentPanda]

What, us and the media together? Really? It's because he's a tout.

You're not allowed to say that Anjem is entirely a creation of the people who put money in his bank account, trotted out whenever they need a comedy Islamist who isn't quite as "central casting" as Bakri.

 

[butchersapron]

You're not allowed to say that Anjem is entirely a creation of the people who put money in his bank account, trotted out whenever they need a comedy Islamist who isn't quite as "central casting" as Bakri.

Question is, was he on the payroll when a southampton swappie? Or was he spotted as potential tool then - this would have been pr-911 i think.

 

[kebabking]

do Islamic fundies say 'jesus fucking christ!' when revolvers blow up in their hands?

 

[ViolentPanda]

rational balanced people tend not to take jobs as head hacking mercenaries, id have thought .

Depends what the pay is like.

 

[cyprusclean]

almost certainly - lets not flatter this by thinking it needed a 'plan': this is two blokes deciding to batter a random person on the street with a car and the contents of their cutlery draw. it has greater political significance than that, but this is nothing that couldn't be cooked up in 2 minutes of pissed-up conversation.

Haven't two more people been arrested in connection to this incident?
So maybe there was some sort of organised "plot"

 

[butchersapron]

I can see things hotting up in the prisons and YOI now.

 

[cesare]

I can see things hotting up in the prisons and YOI now.

Belmarsh not a light regime at the best of times. Air of oppression around this area as people try and get back to normal.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Question is, was he on the payroll when a southampton swappie? Or was he spotted as potential tool then - this would have been pr-911 i think.

In my personal opinion, yes. He doesn't seem to have a lot of "back story" to him except what people who knew him as a Swappie have contributed, and even that seems to be "he was a good bloke, sold his papers" stuff. He was certainly a Swappie in So'ton at a time when the spook community were still suffering Trot fever and trying to have ears everywhere.

 

[kebabking]

Haven't two more people been arrested in connection to this incident?
So maybe there was some sort of organised "plot"

it could be, but two things appear to me to rule out the idea of some long-term, thorough, multi-person plot: firstly that at least one of them knew the area, and there can't be 10 people in south-east London who don't know where Woolwich Barracks is - and secondly that, with the of greatest respect to Dmr Rigby, he was by no means the highest value target in Woolwich Barracks.

does that rule out a 'plot' in the normal meaning of the word? no, it doesn't. its possible that this 'action' was discussed - in a hypothetical way - amongst family/friends, but this didn't need any help/intellectual rigour: they knew the area so didn't need information, they had no escape plan, they had only the most basic weapons, and they went for a fairly unambitious target. if some 'proper' plotting went into this, then the result, again with the greatest respect to Dmr Rigby, has got to be pretty disappointing.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Question is, was he on the payroll when a southampton swappie? Or was he spotted as potential tool then - this would have been pr-911 i think.

Did Chaudary (sp?) seriously used to be a member of the SWP?

 

[butchersapron]

Did Chaudary (sp?) seriously used to be a member of the SWP?

Certainly did. No messing.

edit: and i haven't brought that up for idle swp bashing. There's a relevance here.

 

[ViolentPanda]

there is absolutely no justification for deliberately mutilating your opponents corpse and chopping his head off . None whatsoever, whether ones a jihadist or a gurkha or Royal marine, or a US Marine . My morals on that issue are quite clear cut . The British medias and indeed the British militarys though seem to enter a bit of a grey area depending on who is doing it to who . Which was the only point I was trying to get accross. With regard to this constant media furore, which is engaged in non stop moralising about it.

You need to remember that it's not your morals in play here, it's the morals of the insurgents and of their opponents.
Mutilation/desecration of enemy corpses has a long and inglorious history in asymmetric warfare. It's something insurgents do not because they're immoral or animalistic, but because they know that the effect of doing so magnifies the perceived level of threat to their opponents, and "puts the wind up" them. That beheading an opponent's corpse might cause dismay to your opponents is justification enough, outside of normative morality.

 

[laptop]

Haven't two more people been arrested in connection to this incident?
So maybe there was some sort of organised "plot"

I'm thinking that even if there's no evidence to be gathered, arrests of people who knew the accused serve a function.

They send a message to anyone else who might have heard loose talk: rat now, or we tear up your floorboards later.

Sort of a less-inhumane equivalent of house demolitions.

(Also, they give the appearance of plod Doing Something.)

 

[ViolentPanda]

With a name like butchersapron you've got a fucking cheek to be asking other people to distinguish their story.

I'm guessing you don't get a lot of exposure to irony?

 

[SpineyNorman]

Certainly did. No messing.

Jesus, do we know when he left? They were willing to tolerate some well dodgy stuff from some Muslim men back in the days of STW/Respect, and often strayed onto Muslim identity bollocks (seem to remember at least one relatively senior member converting to Islam but remaining in the SWP) so he may have held some dodgy views back then too.

 

[ibilly99]

Mr Chaudary before the beard took hold..

 

[butchersapron]

Jesus, do we know when he left? They were willing to tolerate some well dodgy stuff from some Muslim men back in the days of STW/Respect, and often strayed onto Muslim identity bollocks (seem to remember at least one relatively senior member converting to Islam but remaining in the SWP) so he may have held some dodgy views back then too.

This was well before respect - he was there as a leftist not a religious.

 

[co-op]

. It's something insurgents do not because they're immoral or animalistic, but because they know that the effect of doing so magnifies the perceived level of threat to their opponents, and "puts the wind up" them.

Not just the insurgent side. Mutilation of bodies/torture is standard practise among soldiers in occupying armies too - there's abundant evidence for that. Asymmetric warfare = atrocities are a certainty.

 

[treelover]

staggers:
http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...es-better-attention-murderers-and-edl-racists

two questions,. one is when will the left protest against the Islamic fundamentalists? and two, all over the web the EDL are being described in terms of dress, education, or in the words of one btl commentator, 'council' can't think of any other political formation that is described in this manner.

 

[treelover]

Question is, was he on the payroll when a southampton swappie? Or was he spotted as potential tool then - this would have been pr-911 i think.

Chaudary was SWP?

actually the way he comes across reminds me of their more fanatical members

no, they are not the same though

 

[treelover]

Did Chaudary (sp?) seriously used to be a member of the SWP?

a fair few of the MAB older members were too